Pagan finding his way to Christianity

[dhornace]

The similarity to other creation stories is surely not a coincidence. If, as I assume, the Hebrews had no independent knowledge about how the earth was created, it's not surprising if they used accounts from the most sophisticated cultures around them -- most likely cultures from which their ancestors had come. But they used them as a framework for a story with a rather different message. (I've compared it at times with theistic evolution. It accepts the scientific account of creation, but sees it as part of God's plan.) Note that this may well not have been done by a single author. It's quite likely that the accounts were passed on in oral tradition, and thus developed over time. Here's an article describing similarities to Egyptian creation accounts, but also showing the differences: http://www.kevinstilley.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Creation-Myths.pdf. Like many scholars, the author regards the creation story as polemic, as an attack on the polytheistic concepts behind Egyptian and Mesopotamian versions of the story. Note that there are enough similarities that you'll find similar articles comparing it with Babylonian creation stories.

I read the article you posted on here. Pretty crazy the similarities that are abundant within it. You are right, specifically in the conclusion of the article they state, "This suggests that Genesis 1 was not originally composed, not as a scientific treatise, but as a theological polemic against the ancient Egyptian model of creation". That being said, what are your views on this?

 

[hedrick]

I read the article you posted on here. Pretty crazy the similarities that are abundant within it. You are right, specifically in the conclusion of the article they state, "This suggests that Genesis 1 was not originally composed, not as a scientific treatise, but as a theological polemic against the ancient Egyptian model of creation". That being said, what are your views on this?

I think it’s impossible to know. We don’t know how much of the stories are due to editors and how much are folk stories, nor do we know their intent.

There are, of course, some things we do know.

I agree with you that the stories are certainly based on the surrounding culture. But this could have come naturally, since the early Hebrews presumably came from those cultures.

We also know that there are clear religious differences in the implications of the stories. I assume people were smart enough to realize that.

But it could be that the stories simply reflect the Hebrew ideas of creation superimposed upon a structure that came from Egyptian stories. Whether they were intended specifically as polemic against Egyptian ideas of the gods I don’t think we’ll even know.

Polemic is certainly possible. If you read the OT carefully, it’s obvious that much of the population honored multiple gods throughout most of the history of Israel. This was a continuing issue for prophets and others. Many of the prophets wrote obvious polemic against the pagan gods, satirizing idols. But I don’t think it’s clear whether the creation stories are polemic, or just reflect Israel’s specific ideas of God’s goals in creation.

 

[dhornace]

But it could be that the stories simply reflect the Hebrew ideas of creation superimposed upon a structure that came from Egyptian stories. Whether they were intended specifically as polemic against Egyptian ideas of the gods I don’t think we’ll even know.

Polemic is certainly possible. If you read the OT carefully, it’s obvious that much of the population honored multiple gods throughout most of the history of Israel. This was a continuing issue for prophets and others. Many of the prophets wrote obvious polemic against the pagan gods, satirizing idols. But I don’t think it’s clear whether the creation stories are polemic, or just reflect Israel’s specific ideas of God’s goals in creation.

It is so refreshing to read this. I completely agree with you on what you are saying. That really puts into words what I was trying to say before. I have always believed in creation just a matter of what context, I believe. Really, the one in the Bible has always been the one I have believed in all of my life, mainly because it ties so closely together with the teachings of even Pagan religions. That is the one thing I have never really been strayed from. I guess as strange as it sounds, as much as it was the foundation for the Bible, it was just as much a foundation for myself spiritually.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I realized the other day that I have been doing just that. I am one of those people who like to question everything and find out the reasons why. I think in the case of Christianity I need to find the truth in it verses why (if that makes sense).
@faroukfarouk gave me some things to read from the bible and I read it and took into consideration the time it was written in. This allowed me to open my mind quite a bit more. Honestly, this is how I really was able to delve into Paganism to begin with, but I think I had such a chip on my shoulder against the Christian faith that I never allowed myself to do that when reading about it. Most Pagan ideas that I followed were based before/during the time of Christ so they too are archaic by nature. Anywho, reading the passages of John and really taking the time to understand what was trying to be said took me to a place that was familiar, but distant to me. Like walking out of a cave that you went into years ago. You recognize its entrance, but is now overgrown. The more I am reading and trying to put back together my belief in the Christian faith, it is becoming easier to allow my mind to relax in a way. Reading your post kind of reaffirms that, that is what I need to do.

That's good to hear, Dan.

By the way, I want to also let you know that there are many of us 'out here' in the real world who have also struggled with belief; you are not alone. I myself have had a couple of 'existential crises' over the years from which I bounced back from. Much of my the recovery of my faith has come from learning to not force the Biblical literature into frameworks for which it wasn't intended, as I alluded to previously (and to which Hedrick has also given some good explication of in his posts above). Some of my recovery also has come by way of being open to the study of various Christian viewpoints as they've been explored, re-articulated, and dealt out through the millennia. The result being that now, I don't take a specific stance on one's belonging to any particular Christian denomination, other than the traditional ones of Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant; they are the ones to go with. I consider myself a 'Historic Christian,' open to the many things Christians of many stripes have pondered (and even conflicted over) through the years.

Anyway, I'm not sharing this so that you'll do the same, but rather so that you'll know to be encouraged by the fact that there are others of us who have also had to re-encounter our faith.

All the best!
2PhiloVoid

 

[fat wee robin]

It is so refreshing to read this. I completely agree with you on what you are saying. That really puts into words what I was trying to say before. I have always believed in creation just a matter of what context, I believe. Really, the one in the Bible has always been the one I have believed in all of my life, mainly because it ties so closely together with the teachings of even Pagan religions. That is the one thing I have never really been strayed from. I guess as strange as it sounds, as much as it was the foundation for the Bible, it was just as much a foundation for myself spiritually.

Two lovely books to read on your journey home , easy to read , while not too long , they are informative , and a bit different, while being 'orthodox' .

"The gifts of the Jews ", and "How the Irish saved Civilisation" by Thomas Cahill .

 

[rockytopva]

There is a spiritual force, energy, and light ...

 

[Swan7]

Hi everyone! New guy here and this is my first post. Little back story first...

I was raised a Catholic and was very very close with my faith and with God. As I got older, I started questioning things, which I think a lot of people do in their early teens. I slowly began to lose my faith, it sort of dissipated. But I still felt a connection with something. I then found Paganism, found that connection with the Gods, etc, etc. So for the last 17 years I have been Pagan. About 5 years ago I was creeping back towards Christianity but it didn't stick. And again, over the last few months I have been creeping towards God again. I bought a Bible and have been reading it again for the first time in years. It's weird. It is like I want to believe, but it is hard when I have been following a certain path for so long. So many things to me that I have made it in my mind that "Christianity doesn't work" or it "contradicts itself". Maybe it will just take time? I'm not sure. I saw a post on here where a gentleman said that you need to fully believe in order to really understand your connection with God. I agree, but it is difficult.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some guidance? Has anyone else been where I am at? I feel like I'm alone with this.

Any responses would be greatly appreciated!

Dan

Hey Dan! Just wanted to give a warm....

​

And to say that I have been down your path, as so many others have. If you would like, here is a link to shed more light as to what you may be experiencing. It's my Testimony!
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/swans-song.7907069/

 

[Nikti]

Hello Dan! Welcome to Christian Forums, I'm glad to see that you are exploring your Christianity again

While I don't come from a similar background as yourself I am on my own faith journey through Christianity and wish you all the best with yours

Right. Outside conservative Protestantism — which isn’t what you’re looking at — creation doesn’t mean 7 days and a young earth. You can certainly understand the specific Genesis stories (remember, there are two different ones, Gen 1 and 2) as legendary. But the idea it reflects underlies the whole Bible, which is that God is responsible for the universe.

That means he’s legitimately in charge. It also means that the universe reflects his nature. One of the big mysteries for scientists is why the mathematical models work so well. Why is the universe constructed so rationally? After quantum mechanics we no longer thing it’s quite so much like a simple machine, but still, why can it be described so well by laws? The Christian answer is that its rationality reflects God’s rationality.

Not only does the universe reflect God, but we do. We are made in his image. If you try to look at the Bible as a whole and ask what the overall plot is, it is God trying to restore (or if you consider the Fall to be legend, to establish) his image to man. And through man, to the whole universe. He established a covenant with Israel to help it develop that way. When that failed, he sent prophets. Finally, he sent his son.



Christians can be (and probably should be) strong and forthright. But if God is our creator, and our purpose is to reflect his image, then we should be trying to develop in a way that does that. Jesus’ normal term is obedience, not submission. There’s overlap, but they may not be identical. But if God is really our creator, and the universe and our own lives reflect him, then what he asks of us should be good for us. So it’s like a young child obeying parents. Parents who are competent and want their children to grow into strong, independent people.

One of the strengths or weaknesses (depending at least in part upon our relationship with our own parents) of Jesus’ continual reference to God as Father is that what it means depends upon our image of what it means to be a father. Is it a father who just wants his children to do what he says? Or is it a father who is concerned about developing his children into the best possible people? The meaning of obedience and submission depend upon that concept.

There’s one other core concept that should be mentioned. That is that people are part of a web of relationships: God and man, husband and wife, parent and child, citizen and government. Some theologians have defined personhood as being constituted entirely be the relationship of the person to others.

I really like this response you got and I agree about the parent-child analogy that's how I understand it

Feel free to PM if you would like to chat or talk about anything specific. I'm usually on 'The Ancient Way' (Eastern Orthodox) forums.

Anyway just wanted to give you a shout out and wish you all the best!

Kindest regards,
Nicole

 

[dhornace]

Hello Dan! Welcome to Christian Forums, I'm glad to see that you are exploring your Christianity again

While I don't come from a similar background as yourself I am on my own faith journey through Christianity and wish you all the best with yours



I really like this response you got and I agree about the parent-child analogy that's how I understand it

Feel free to PM if you would like to chat or talk about anything specific. I'm usually on 'The Ancient Way' (Eastern Orthodox) forums.

Anyway just wanted to give you a shout out and wish you all the best!

Kindest regards,
Nicole

Hi Nicole,
Thank you for the support! I'll definitely check out the forums you are posting and same goes for you if you want to PM me! Hope all is well!

 

[eternity75]

Hi Dan,

I am new to these forums myself, but I have had a similar experience to you. I was raised in a Christian church, but began to fall away from Christianity in my teen years, and by the time I was 18 I pretty much fell away completely. I got to a place where I didn't know what to believe. I went off to college, to a Luthern college, but my belief was " I don't know what to believe". I became a bit interested in Eastern religions and what they had to offer. And after that I came to believe that all religions were inspired by God and that he used all religions to bring us close to him. I still did not have any particularly strong beliefs or feelings towards any one religion. I then became interested in New Age Spirituality and the Law of Attraction movement and became fully immersed in that. Often they used references to Jesus and things that were said in the Bible about God and Jesus, but it was all focused on getting the things you want and living "abundantly". Nevertheless, it brought me back to an interest in the Bible. Since then, I have come to understand God as a loving God. My early church experiences were a lot like yours...feeling a connection with God as a child, and an excitement to know him, but later learning of God as someone to fear, an angry God full of wrath who would smite us for our mistakes. I now have a better understanding of God and what he wants for us. I still have a long way to go in my learning and understanding of the Bible, but I am more excited and interested in doing what it takes to learn also. And I have found that if I have questions and things I don't quite understand, I pray and ask God to help me understand. I ask my questions of him and every time so far I have received a clear answer that makes sense to me.

Someone, somewhere posted this link to this website and I found it very helpful, as well as beautiful: http://fathersloveletter.com/text.html

The Bible tells us to become like little children. I think that is why as children we had an easier time being excited about and feeling a connection with God, despite at young ages our Biblical understanding was probably very limited. Little children trust their parents. Children have an innate sense of faith. I hope to become just like that again, to have faith without question.

Another thing that has helped me when I had questions if Christianity was the true path, I became interested in prophecy. I have read and studied a lot about it and it has taken away any and all doubt that I had that Christianity is the right way. I don't know of any other religious text that has so accurately predicted future occurrences some 2000-3000 years in advance. So now I am 100% sure it is all true, now I need to work on me and ask for God's help in getting there!

I hope you continue to grow in your understanding and don't give up! God IS calling you back. I found every time I drifted away, I felt him pulling me back to him gradually, in so many ways. He will provide you with the answers you need if you continue to seek understanding.