Paedocommunion and Anglicanism

[higgs2]

Ummm... I rather think it does! The 1662 BCP is still the standard liturgy for the worldwide Anglican Communion... it's the only single authorized liturgy for the whole communion.

I don't think so. I don't think that we have to put down our 1979 BCP and check the 1662 to see if there's anything that applies to us that we're ignoring.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thanks, Timothy. That does not apply, then, to my church.

Nor does this, apparently:

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

 

[Timothy]

I don't think so. I don't think that we have to put down our 1979 BCP and check the 1662 to see if there's anything that applies to us that we're ignoring.

Then that is why America differs from every other province of the Anglican communion. Every other province (I believe, I may be wrong) has the 1662 as the aurthorized definitive liturgy for 'we believe as we pray'.

Timothy

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Then that is why America differs from every other province of the Anglican communion. Every other province (I believe, I may be wrong) has the 1662 as the aurthorized definitive liturgy for 'we believe as we pray'.

Timothy

We can't expect ECUSA to pray for the Queen, can we?

 

[higgs2]

Then that is why America differs from every other province of the Anglican communion. Every other province (I believe, I may be wrong) has the 1662 as the aurthorized definitive liturgy for 'we believe as we pray'.

Timothy

You could be right. Even New Zealand, do you think?

 

[higgs2]

We can't expect ECUSA to pray for the Queen, can we?

I was going to mention that, but I didn't want to offend.

 

[gtsecc]

How is it that children will be excluded but non-Christians are not? I read in another thread that you let the unbaptized partake.

Being inclusive and affirming is the most important Christian doctrine for Anglicans.
We have folks who want Malcolm X in the BCP, but we recently rejects the Charles the Royal martyr, executed for holding on to the Bishops and the Liturgy. If you read the notes of the General Convention, which rejected his inclusuion, they say because we don't need another white English monarch in the BCP.

 

[Timothy]

You could be right. Even New Zealand, do you think?

New Zealand has the 'Book of Common Prayer' and the 'New Zealand Prayer Book'.
Much like we have the 'Book of Common Prayer' and the 'Provincial liturgy of Jerusalem and the Middle East'.

 

[Timothy]

American Book of Common Prayer, 1979:

Q. What is required of us when we come to the Eucharist?

A. It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our
sins, and be in love and charity with all people.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Well, I'm sorry if you think I'm being nasty to you , but I really do know when I am wasting my time, and I don't think I'm obligated to teach someone who obviously has no intention in engaging me in any meaningful way. Had you addressed the scriptures cited, the Anglican tradition as it has been since God-knows when and so forth with an open mind, then perhaps I would take the time to show you in the 1979 BCP where it says we have to examine our consciences in order to be eligible for Holy Communion (but I'm not sure about the statement you asked about), which alone should suffice to any sincere enquirer as to the intention of the practice of the Anglican church. The matter entirely rests in that principle, which you have not addressed but have been pointed toward.

How usual is it for churches to teach in a service that HC is only for those who have examined their conciences? I can't recall any teaching on this in a service (although I know it from midweek teaching). If someone only shows up on a Sunday, and never comes to extra teaching or confirmation classes, how are they going to know what the correct rituals are?

As for children, in our church, they'd automatically receive a blessing, even if they don't cross their chests. For adults, if they put out their hands, they get communion.

 

[higgs2]

American Book of Common Prayer, 1979:

Q. What is required of us when we come to the Eucharist?

A. It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our
sins, and be in love and charity with all people.

Yes, I did see that.

 

[higgs2]

New Zealand has the 'Book of Common Prayer' and the 'New Zealand Prayer Book'.
Much like we have the 'Book of Common Prayer' and the 'Provincial liturgy of Jerusalem and the Middle East'.

Oh. Well, maybe ECUSA is different than everyone else, I don't know. I do know that you won't find a 1662 prayer book in place of the 1979 BCP, although some churches have permission to use the 1928.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Oh. Well, maybe ECUSA is different than everyone else, I don't know. I do know that you won't find a 1662 prayer book in place of the 1979 BCP, although some churches have permission to use the 1928.

In my experience, in the 1979 prayerbook, Rite 1 (or was it Rite A?) was similar to the 1662, and Rite 2 (B?) was similar to ASB (which was the CofE prayerbook when I left there - I came back to CW).

 

[ContraMundum]

How usual is it for churches to teach in a service that HC is only for those who have examined their conciences? I can't recall any teaching on this in a service (although I know it from midweek teaching).

I've taught on it, and I preach it too. In fact, I think every time we say "ye who do earnestly repent you of your sins.." etc, that is a declaration of that principle.

If someone only shows up on a Sunday, and never comes to extra teaching or confirmation classes, how are they going to know what the correct rituals are?

As for children, in our church, they'd automatically receive a blessing, even if they don't cross their chests. For adults, if they put out their hands, they get communion.

Well, I'm all for a tightening up of common practices for the sake of loyalty to the scriptures. Still, I gues every situation is different and it's up to your parish how things get done. It would be hard for me to judge anything but I'm sure your priest knows what he's doing.

 

[Timothy]

Yes, but doctrinally there have been a lot of changes, Naomi. We believe as we pray, when we change what we pray (or discard it as out of date) we change what we believe.

 

[higgs2]

In my experience, in the 1979 prayerbook, Rite 1 (or was it Rite A?) was similar to the 1662, and Rite 2 (B?) was similar to ASB (which was the CofE prayerbook when I left there - I came back to CW).

Yes, that's true. Actually, Rite 1 is similary to the 1928 prayerbook, which is more like the 1662.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I've taught on it, and I preach it too. In fact, I think every time we say "ye who do earnestly repent you of your sins.." etc, that is a declaration of that principle.

So you don't spell it out, crystal clear, in standard English?

 

[paleodoxy]

Infants are unable to sin on grounds that they cannot tell the difference between good and evil yet.

As I stated earlier, I am in agreement with Paladin on paedocommunion. However, I do not agree with his reasoning here.

Infants are not permitted to celebrate Eucharist because they cannot tell the difference between good and evil.

They are required to partake because they are baptized Christians.

St. Paul's injunction to "examine" oneself and to "discern" the Lord's Body exists amidst prior rebukings of the Corinthians regarding gluttonous behavior and failure to include the poor.

In this way, the Corinthians were not "discerning" the Lord's Body, and Paul adjures them to "examine" themselves on this issue. "Are you discerning Christ's Body (i.e. you fellow brother and sister)? "

In this way, anti-paedocommunionists are also failing to "discern" Christ's Body, and should learn to seriously "examine" their behavior in this area.

Please heed Christ's warning in Matt.25:42, 45. This is serious stuff!

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Yes, but doctrinally there have been a lot of changes, Naomi. We believe as we pray, when we change what we pray (or discard it as out of date) we change what we believe.

Is 1979 Rite 1 doctrinally different to Rite 2?

They may both be different to the 1662, which remains the gold standard. But where did these prayer books come from - were they both evolutions of the 1662 (or a standard version from the start of PECUSA), or did the 1979 evolve from the 1928 (which would be worrying)?

In CW, there are slight doctrinal differences between the various communion prayers, such as the emphasis on the epiclesis (which evangelicals don't really go for at all).

 

[ContraMundum]

So you don't spell it out, crystal clear, in standard English?

Umm..of course I do.