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I give up. I honestly tried to understand your position, Hypo, and all I get in response to genuine questioning is circular references to previous posts and out-of-context Bible quotes. No concrete answers; just more smoke and mirrors.
I tried, busterdog.
Without even addressing whether Hypo did a good job or a bad job in stating his position, no one believes this. You are better off with that as your working hypothesis. Seem to be hammering the way he says things, but the above "fiction = false" is not required by his argument.
Fiction is still fiction, not truth.
According to scripture, it is not vague, it is impossible; at least, to the unsaved, hard of heart and, where and when applicable, the spiritually immature. Attempting to explain to people of such the spiritual things of God and the gifts of God might be likened to trying to explain nuclear physics to, say, a squirrel. Such mysteries are beyond the capabilities of mere mortal man. They can only be understood by one born of spirit and then only in due time with the maturity of that spirit as and how The Spirit of God so imparts the understanding of that spiritual knowledge to each individual born of The Spirit of God. In the earthy (human) sense, some possess inherent talents while others' capabilities are learned; similarly, in the spiritual sense, understanding is, for some, gifted, often as an ebb and flow supply, as so needed at the time, as each so requests and God, approvingly, grants while, on the other hand, still others, though their spirit may be older, have never matured and possess only a measure of faith to sustain them. The key in all is not how well one may understand either the spiritual or physical mysteries of God, for no amount of applied brain cells can ever come to this Truth of God but, rather, how close the affiliation of one is with The Almighty and that is something that can only be attained through a submitted will and countless hours, days and years of a lifetime speaking not to but with The Almighty on bended knee in prayer, there simply are no shortcuts nor can it be found through any amount or depth of human reason or knowledge for it is not wrought from below but comes from on high.Is the distinction between knowledge that God gives and that man has by his own means vague?
If something has no truth it is...
Also remember, he is writing in the context of established criticism that goes as follows: We know that no one can feed 5,000 people with a few loaves and fishes, so knowing that, we also know that most of those 5,000 people brought a fish sandwich, and demonstrated the miracle of sharing. That is a fiction that is a lie.
Just ask the man, "Do you think parables have no truth in them."
Bet you a million bucks he answers the question correctly.
I wouldn't presume to know that this is a correct analysis. But what is the basis for asserting it is a lie?
As far as I know, no version of the story (and it is found in all four gospels, one of the few stories outside the passion that is) indicates how the people were fed. Only that they were.
And if he said they did he would be contradicting himself, would he not? The realm of fiction includes parables, doesn't it?
Here is the thesis: Much modern theology makes the literal truth of the Gospel into fiction. That theology is a lie.
No one in their right mind thinks a parable must be literal truth to be true. That is a completely seperate issue -- despite the fact that a similar vocabulary is in play. Hypo never said anything about parables being literally true. There is no debate between inerrant believers and the proponents of demythologizing that touches upon the parables.
The liberal churches of the Western world, especially, Britain, Europe and, yes, the United States likely stand in the face of great danger of losing their "candlestick" for succumbing to the Nimrodian humanist ways of the world sacrificing doctrinal purity for numbers, bottom line profits and a social 'feel good' gospel quietly blending into one with all religions, beliefs and faiths of a one world religion in the developing New World Order.
Revelation 2:4-5
II Corinthians 6:14-17
- Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
- Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
- Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
- And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
- And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
- Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord
Yes you are quoting out of context. You referred to the tree of knowledge of good and evil before and drew completely unjustified conclusions from it. Yet you never seem to want to discuss your claims. I answered you about the tree of knowledge in post 258 http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43216136&postcount=258 but you never replied.Not sure what TE stands for but at the risk of quoting out of context, "in the beginning it was not so" in that it was not God's desire man should know the difference between the knowledge of good and evil.
God both inspired the scripture we read, and created the universe humans study and learn about.However, since man screwed that up, as the saying goes, times changed.
There is human knowledge and there is scriptural knowledge and the twain shall never meet.
For all its pride filled search for truth human knowledge is incapable of finding that truth for, as the scriptures teach:Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
On the other hand, only those that are in Christ can ever come to the true truth that is only found in spiritual truth as the scriptures, also, teach:
even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Anything man's knowledge is capable of producing is of benefit only in this life
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
and has no real merit
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
as far as the spiritual things of God are concerned Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
and which should be our only concern. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Except there wasn't a single shred of evidence in the scriptures you quoted that supported your rejection of human knowledge.I believe that states my position quite succinctly.
Text: Mat 16:9 Jesus: "Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?"
Imagined Subtext: Jesus: "Did see how I got rid of all those losers witout feeding them? Now, that was a miracle!" (Not).
Do you think Paradise Lost contains truths? Hypo clearly does not, thus making me think he thinks anything that is fictional is absolutely false.
Hypo still refuses to acknowledge my existence so we'll never know.
Yes, the crowd was fed and there were lots of leftovers. How does that make the proposed miracle of sharing a lie?
Let's not get into imagined, and very questionable, sub-texts. The crowd was fed. That's non-negotiable given the text.
The question is still why is the sharing explanation of the miracle a lie?
What textual reason is there for dismissing it as a possible way the miracle of feeding the large crowd occurred?
The only miracle, creative or otherwise, going on around here is all the presumed mind reading being exhibited.Respectfully, I think that is another thread and we have probably strayed far enough from the OP. If you want to make it an origins issue, it would appear to be a "creative" miracle.
Respectfully, I think that is another thread and we have probably strayed far enough from the OP. If you want to make it an origins issue, it would appear to be a "creative" miracle.
Not sure what TE stands for but at the risk of quoting out of context, "in the beginning it was not so" in that it was not God's desire man should know the difference between the knowledge of good and evil.
However, since man screwed that up, as the saying goes, times changed.
There is human knowledge and there is scriptural knowledge and the twain shall never meet.
For all its pride filled search for truth human knowledge is incapable of finding that truth ...
Is the distinction between knowledge that God gives and that man has by his own means vague? Very often this is true.
I don't think it goes out of bounds. We began talking of metaphor and we moved on to talking about fiction. You identified this particular interpretation as "fiction that is a lie."
I would like to know what the basis is for identifying it as a lie.
You are offering the C.S. Lewis interpretation. That's fine. But not what I asked for. One can hold to that interpretation and still recognize the other as a possibility. So why characterise it as a lie?
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