Overpopulation

[Hydra009]

Ok, here's what I don't understand. How could someone argue the the U.S. is not becoming overpopulated?

Total U.S. population in 1900 - 76,212,168
Total U.S. population in 1910 - 92,228,496
Total U.S. population in 1920 - 106,021,537
Total U.S. population in 1930 - 123,202,624
Total U.S. population in 1940 - 132,164,569
Total U.S. population in 1950 - 151,325,798
Total U.S. population in 1960 - 179,323,175
Total U.S. population in 1970 - 203,302,031
Total U.S. population in 1980 - 226,542,199
Total U.S. population in 1990 - 248,709,873
Total U.S. population in 2000 - 281 million
Total U.S. population as of April 26, 2005 - 295,974,772
_____

Sources:
http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/urpop0090.txt
http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp1_basic_counts
http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Ok, here's what I don't understand. How could someone argue the the U.S. is not becoming overpopulated?

Total U.S. population in 1900 - 76,212,168
Total U.S. population in 1910 - 92,228,496
Total U.S. population in 1920 - 106,021,537
Total U.S. population in 1930 - 123,202,624
Total U.S. population in 1940 - 132,164,569
Total U.S. population in 1950 - 151,325,798
Total U.S. population in 1960 - 179,323,175
Total U.S. population in 1970 - 203,302,031
Total U.S. population in 1980 - 226,542,199
Total U.S. population in 1990 - 248,709,873
Total U.S. population in 2000 - 281 million
Total U.S. population as of April 26, 2005 - 295,974,772
_____

Sources:
http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/urpop0090.txt
http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp1_basic_counts
http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

Now do a population density compared to other nations that are likewise world leaders and you will find that we have much more 'room' than others.

 

[Hydra009]

Now do a population density compared to other nations that are likewise world leaders and you will find that we have much more 'room' than others.

"room" is not the only resource humans require. But since you seem to think the rest of the world isn't experiencing overpopulation, here's a lovely graph:

It's almost an extra billion a decade. Is this sustainable?

 

[Lokisdottir]

Now do a population density compared to other nations that are likewise world leaders and you will find that we have much more 'room' than others.

Right, because it's not overpopulation until there are no trees or animals left and we're all living like sardines.

I happen to LIKE having a bit of wiggle room, thank you. I'd rather keep it this way.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

"room" is not the only resource humans require. But since you seem to think the rest of the world isn't experiencing overpopulation, here's a lovely graph:
*

The point is that it is a difficult task (if not impossible) to prove that the U.S. is 'over-populated'.
And I'm not moved by graphs; as a Christian, I have faith that God is in charge and has 'it covered'.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Right, because it's not overpopulation until there are no trees or animals left and we're all living like sardines.

I happen to LIKE having a bit of wiggle room, thank you. I'd rather keep it this way.

And so, I think you have hit on the issue with the entire claim of over-population... selfishness. Whether it be that the resources are not shared properly or that the individual's desire overrides the consideration of others.

I like 'wiggle room' as well, that's why I live in the country.

 

[DailyBlessings]

The US' population continues to expand, but the rate of growth has declined steadily since 1960 and continues to do so. Some states, such as North Dakota, have even seen a loss in population. This is a result of lower birth rates, as childlessness becomes socially and biologically more likely in the States.

Compared to other nations, the US is not the major center of the very real threat of overpopulation.

 

[wowbagger]

"room" is not the only resource humans require. But since you seem to think the rest of the world isn't experiencing overpopulation, here's a lovely graph:
It's almost an extra billion a decade. Is this sustainable?

Actually all the statistics don't mean anything unless you have something to compare them to, like an actual number for "sustainable population".

What if the US could sustain 4 billion people? Would the current population be so concerning? You are missing this number.

I have heard that the sustainable world population is around 12 billion and that it will level off at around 10 billion.

 

[Hydra009]

The point is that it is a difficult task (if not impossible) to prove that the U.S. is 'over-populated'.
And I'm not moved by graphs;

Obviously. And that's the problem.

The point is: If it isn't overpopuled now, if the growth rate continues, overpopulation is an inevitability.

as a Christian, I have faith that God is in charge and has 'it covered'.

I don't share your faith. But my pastor had an excellent sermon that may shed some light on this:

A Christian man was in his house during a flood. The man prayed for God to save him from the floodwaters. As the water flooded the first story of his house, he was forced to the his second story balcony.

He saw a neighbor in a rowboat who asked him to hop aboard to take him to the safety of higher ground. The man replied, "No, thanks. God will save me." The neighbor left, and the man continued to pray for God to save him.

Then the waters rose again, and the man was forced to the third story of his house. This time, another neighbor in a boat came to take him to higher ground. He refused again, and continued praying to God to save him.

The floodwaters rose again, this time pushing the man to the roof of his house. A helicopter hovered nearby, and another man frantically demanded that he come aboard. Again, the man refused, and continued praying.

Not long after, the whole house was enveloped by the flood and the man drowned. When the man went to heaven, he asked God why God didn't save him. God replied, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

_____

IMHO, there is a very good lesson in this parable.

 

[comana]

I still don't get what is wrong with a decreasing world population. Is it all about the potential economic collapse? It's called a depression, we'll get over it.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I don't know exactly what you are trying to advocate when you discuss the US. Yes the US is starting to become overpopulated, but it's mainly due to immigration. So from that perspective the only agenda I could say that would care about the US getting overpopulated is one that wants stricter immigration procedures.

But then you start talking about world population, and the increase in world population is obviously from different causes. So I'm confused at the exact relationship you are trying to bring up here. Certainly the overpopulation of the world will cause more immigration and thus overpopulate America, but other than that I am not seeing anything.

I suppose what I mean is this: say I grant that the world and/or the United States is getting overpopulated. What do you want to do about it?

 

[vanshan]

Wow, I love all the graphs and data. Now this is a thinking persons thread.

I would have to say that I lament urban sprawl. I would like to see more laws restricting that sort of city growth, to preserve our wide-open spaces. So far the U.S. is full of undeveloped space that I don't think will be threatened in our lifetimes. The birthrate is way down, the only factor causing us to continue having positive population growth is immigration.

With cars and highways allowing for longer commutes, I don't think we can stop the spreading of the cities, but it's not a critical issue, espcially for those of us who don't live on the coasts.

Basil

 

[Hydra009]

I suppose what I mean is this: say I grant that the world and/or the United States is getting overpopulated. What do you want to do about it?

Just to acknowledge it.

 

[Phred]

A "sustainable" population means everything is firing on all cylinders. No droughts, floods, hurricanes or tsunamis. We currently have people starving in the world with a population of just over 6 billion.

I think the planet is overpopulated with humans right now. And no, I don't agree that "God has it under control." At no time has any deity bothered to fix anything we've done to this planet. If we screw it up it's up to us to fix it. Since we see it coming, we have no reason to avoid doing something about it.

But nobody will. Having kids is your "god-given" right. So pop out 15 or so, no reason not to. Breed like rabbits. But since mankind has no predators, a bountiful baby harvest only means some kid someplace else will starve.

.
​

 

[wowbagger]

A "sustainable" population means everything is firing on all cylinders. No droughts, floods, hurricanes or tsunamis. We currently have people starving in the world with a population of just over 6 billion.

I think the planet is overpopulated with humans right now. And no, I don't agree that "God has it under control." At no time has any deity bothered to fix anything we've done to this planet. If we screw it up it's up to us to fix it. Since we see it coming, we have no reason to avoid doing something about it.

But nobody will. Having kids is your "god-given" right. So pop out 15 or so, no reason not to. Breed like rabbits. But since mankind has no predators, a bountiful baby harvest only means some kid someplace else will starve.

A good argument for providing birth control/condoms to 3rd world countries where infant mortality and starvation is a big problem with too many people and not enough resources. Americans are pretty good about the birth rate already and surprisingly Italy's is one of the lowest!

But we are talking about America...not high on the list of dense countries I'm afraid. (unless your talking about our brains)

 

[HouseApe]

And so, I think you have hit on the issue with the entire claim of over-population... selfishness. Whether it be that the resources are not shared properly or that the individual's desire overrides the consideration of others.

I like 'wiggle room' as well, that's why I live in the country.

You hit it right on the head. It is selfish to desire to have open spaces. It is selfish to desire to enjoy nature and wildlife. It is selfish to know that your children and children's children will have the same opportunities to fulfill those desires. It is selfish to desire that non-human life forms have the opportunity to flourish as best they can.

I wonder then, is it selfish to hope for a future where people do not have to live like the sardines in NYC or Hong Kong? Is it selfish to try and fulfill that hope?

 

[butterfoot]

Obviously. And that's the problem.

The point is: If it isn't overpopuled now, if the growth rate continues, overpopulation is an inevitability.

I don't share your faith. But my pastor had an excellent sermon that may shed some light on this:

A Christian man was in his house during a flood. The man prayed for God to save him from the floodwaters. As the water flooded the first story of his house, he was forced to the his second story balcony.

He saw a neighbor in a rowboat who asked him to hop aboard to take him to the safety of higher ground. The man replied, "No, thanks. God will save me." The neighbor left, and the man continued to pray for God to save him.

Then the waters rose again, and the man was forced to the third story of his house. This time, another neighbor in a boat came to take him to higher ground. He refused again, and continued praying to God to save him.

The floodwaters rose again, this time pushing the man to the roof of his house. A helicopter hovered nearby, and another man frantically demanded that he come aboard. Again, the man refused, and continued praying.

Not long after, the whole house was enveloped by the flood and the man drowned. When the man went to heaven, he asked God why God didn't save him. God replied, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

_____

IMHO, there is a very good lesson in this parable.

Obviously your story is flawed because as a christian we would we see those attempts at rescue as our cue to get out of there. But your story insinuates that Christians are stupid.


-cw

 

[HouseApe]

A good argument for providing birth control/condoms to 3rd world countries where infant mortality and starvation is a big problem with too many people and not enough resources. Americans are pretty good about the birth rate already and surprisingly Italy's is one of the lowest!

But we are talking about America...not high on the list of dense countries I'm afraid. (unless your talking about our brains)

Birth control and condoms in 3rd world countries won't be much of a help. It assumes men will allow women to use them, and that is a cultural thing. Those societies which have stable or declining populations are the ones in which it is recognized that females have the birth control prerogative and where raising children is an expensive proposition.

Human populations will always expand to meet the available food supply, but the supply will always be distributed to those who will pay the most for it. Which is why, IMHO, there will always be some level of starvation. Greater populations just mean more people starving, but not necessarily at a higher rate.

 

[Lokisdottir]

You hit it right on the head. It is selfish to desire to have open spaces. It is selfish to desire to enjoy nature and wildlife. It is selfish to know that your children and children's children will have the same opportunities to fulfill those desires. It is selfish to desire that non-human life forms have the opportunity to flourish as best they can.

I wonder then, is it selfish to hope for a future where people do not have to live like the sardines in NYC or Hong Kong? Is it selfish to try and fulfill that hope?

You stole the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Hydra009]

Obviously your story is flawed because as a christian we would we see those attempts at rescue as our cue to get out of there. But your story insinuates that Christians are stupid.

It isn't my story. Take it up with my old pastor (Methodist, btw) if you think it is offensive to Christians. It's actually quite edifying to one who is not distracted with being overly defensive to listen.

*Actually, if it makes you feel better, IIRC, his version stopped when the man was on the roof and shouted up to God and God responded, the story didn't necessarily involve the man's death. It's been a few years since I heard that sermon.*