Overcoming addictions by leaving Christianity

Tolworth John · Sep 28, 2017

ToddNotTodd said:
And yet the most racist, sexist and hateful people I've ever met are devout Christians...

Sadly that is far to true. Just as many atheists I've known are kind and generous.
Both however are not living according to their believes.

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
One either accepts Jesus or one rejects Jesus.

Both these options require believing that Jesus exists.
You can't "reject" jesus if you don't even consider Jesus to be real.

I just thought I'ld point that out...

There is no, 'I'm not a Christian but I respect Jesus as a great teacher etc'

Why not?
What's wrong with for example the view that the historical Jesus was a real person, but not a God or son thereof? And viewing him as a person with revolutionary ideas concerning social and political constructs and "ways to live"?

I mean, surely you can easily come up with a dozen names of "just humans" who made extreme positive impacts on society as a whole by being succesfull activists one way or the other, right?

It seems as if you think that no human can have good and revolutionary ideas unless that human is a supernatural being....

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Question for you. Who in the world is seeking to follow Jesus the most?
Is it humanists. Christians. Muslims or some other group.

I think a different question would be more appropriate:

Who in the world acts more Christ-like?

"seeking" is one thing. Actually doing is another.
For example, I'ld say that plenty of well known non-christians act a LOT more christ-like then a LOT of well known christians.

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
So what is it that Christians should be doing, in your opinion, if they are to follow Jesus?

how does humanistic ideas ensure that justice is available to all?
It is Christianity that teaches that everyone is equal under the law.

Errr.... isn't the whole point of humanism to establish peace, tolerance, well-being and respect for universal human rights?

Dirk1540 · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Sadly that is far to true. Just as many atheists I've known are kind and generous.
Both however are not living according to their believes.

How does an atheist who's kind and generous "not live according this his beliefs"?

And keep in mind that what defines an "atheist", is what that person does NOT believe - not what (s)he DOES believe.

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Dirk1540 said:
What do you think of the people who conquered drug and alcohol addiction at the same time they found Christianity?

I think people of all flavors find motivations in a wide variety of things, one of which is christianity, to change their lives for the better.

I also think that plenty of people change for the worst while thinking they are improving their lives.

When an tolerant atheist for example becomes a fundamentalist (of any religion) and suddenly turns homophobic, facist and opposes secular democracy in favor of theocracy.

And yes, this happens in christianity too.

Dirk1540 · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
And keep in mind that what defines an "atheist", is what that person does NOT believe - not what (s)he DOES believe.

An atheist believes that God does not exist. That is a positive position. There is literally nobody alive who takes a passive NON-position if you simply dissect their stance. An agnostic takes the position that God's existence is both possible or not possibly, but that we don't have enough evidence to make the call. A person who claims that they can't be defined by what they believe isn't exactly dialed into advanced philosophy, there's no such thing.

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
How does an atheist who's kind and generous "not live according this his beliefs"?

And keep in mind that what defines an "atheist", is what that person does NOT believe - not what (s)he DOES believe.

Tell where in the atheist world view does one find the instructions to be kind and generous to others.

Evolution teaches that the strong devour the weak.

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
You can't "reject" jesus if you don't even consider Jesus to be real.

Only a real ignoramous hold to that position.
You will struggle to find a historian who accepts that Jesus never existed.

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Errr.... isn't the whole point of humanism to establish peace, tolerance, well-being and respect for universal human rights?

Is it, I thought it was to do away with all religion and allow the rule of the powerfull.

Please correct me by showing where your ideas of peace, tolerance and respect come from.
I maintain that you get these ideas from Christianity.

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Dirk1540 said:
An atheist believes that God does not exist.

No, that is simply not true.
I, as atheist, don't make any claims regarding gods or other unfalsifiable entities.
My atheism is defined only by me answering "no" to the question "do you believe god exists?"

That is a positive position

Sure, but it's not necessarily the atheist position.
It's a bit like with fingers.
If atheism is "finger", then the position you described is for example a thumb.

Not all atheists make such claims. In fact, most don't.
Even Richard Dawkins, aka Mr Atheist, doesn't put himself in that camp.

There is literally nobody alive who takes a passive NON-position if you simply dissect their stance

An agnostic takes the position that God's existence is both possible or not possibly, but that we don't have enough evidence to make the call.

Agnosticism isn't a position on belief. It's a position of knowledge.
It's not some third option between atheism and theism.

You either answer "yes" to the question "do you believe a god exists?" or not. Yes, makes you a theist. Anything but "yes" makes you not a theist - an atheist.

I'm an agnostic atheist.
One is a qualifier of the other.
One pertains to knowledge, to other to beliefs.

A person who claims that they can't be defined by what they believe isn't exactly dialed into advanced philosophy, there's no such thing.

My worldview is definatly defined by the things I DO believe, yes.
But not by the things that I do NOT believe.

Having said all that.... you forgot to actually answer my question.

How is being "kind and generous" not in accordance with what an atheist believes? In fact.... how do you even know what "an atheist" believes? Since the word "atheist" only tells you about what a person does NOT believe........

I'll bend over backwards here and even include so called "strong atheism" (being people who actually make the claim that no gods exist). How is strong atheism not in accordance with being kind and generous?

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Tell where in the atheist world view does one find the instructions to be kind and generous to others.

First, there's no such thing as an "atheist world". Atheism is just the absence of theism. It isn't a thing on its own. It has no doctrines, political views or what-have-you.

Just like "not playing football" has no rule book on how not to play football. Instead, you just don't play football. But you'll likely have some other hobby - which isn't determined by not playing football.

This is why atheists come in all colours and flavors. This is why an atheist can be a capitalist, a communist, a democrat, a liberal, a tree hugger, a humanist,....

So, to answer the question of where atheists get their "instructions"... the answer simply is "lots of different sources" - and none of them are "atheism".

Evolution teaches that the strong devour the weak.

Evolution is a scientific theory which explains the facts of biology. It is not an instruction set on how to live your life or how to organize a society.

And ps: evolution doesn't favour "the strong" over "the weak". What it does is favour the most "fit" over the "unfit". And "fit" here doesn't mean "strong, fast, tall,...". It means "well adapted to the habitat". Which, depending on environment, might just as well mean "slow, small,..."

Not that it matters though, because natural science has nothing to do with how to behave and social interaction.

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Only a real ignoramous hold to that position.

Really?

Ok. Explain how one can "reject" something that one doesn't even consider to be real.
To me, that makes absolutely no sense. Because to those people, there is nothing there to reject...

You will struggle to find a historian who accepts that Jesus never existed.

I was referring to the supernatural version of this character.

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
So, to answer the question of where atheists get their "instructions"... the answer simply is "lots of different sources" - and none of them are "atheism".

So why are you kind, generous etc?

DogmaHunter · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Is it, I thought it was to do away with all religion and allow the rule of the powerfull.

Then you are seriously misinformed.

Please correct me by showing where your ideas of peace, tolerance and respect come from.

Reason.

The realisation that we live in a cooperative society and that my well-being and the well-being of loved ones, is directly related to the well-being of others. Even those people that I personally don't like.

From the realisation that my decisions and actions potentially have impact on other people and if we are going to share this space and "work together" to live good lives, I have to recognise that impact.

I maintain that you get these ideas from Christianity.

You maintain wrongly. There is nothing of worth in christianity that other cultures haven't figured out independently without needing a bible.

And let's not even start on all the deeply immoral bits in that book.

Did christianity contribute to western culture? Obviously. For better AND worse. Just like most all other religions - including Islam.

However, there is NOTHING "good" in religion that can't be (or indeed wasn't) stumbled upon by purely secular and reasonable means.

I don't require an ancient book to tell me it's good to be nice to people, to realise it is good to be nice to people. 5 seconds of rational thought will tell you that as well.

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Really?

Ok. Explain how one can "reject" something that one doesn't even consider to be real.
To me, that makes absolutely no sense. Because to those people, there is nothing there to reject...

I was referring to the supernatural version of this character.

To claim someone did not exist when the historical evidence says he did exist is an act of ignorance.

The supernatural Jesus, by that you mean what is recorded in the bible.

Again historians accept that Jesus was exceuted, that he was burried and that the disciples belived they had met the risen Jesus.

Your task is to prove this did not happen.

Question. If the disciples lied about the resuresction, why where they prepared to die for what they knew was a lie?
Why didn't the authorities stop them by producing the body of Jesus?

Tolworth John · Sep 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Reason.

Where in the mass of information does reason tell us to be nice to each other?

For your information part of Christianities unique contribution to civilisation is the belief that everyone is equal under the law.
Another is the foundations that science is built on. That the universe is reasonable, consitent and that we are able to seek to understand it.

ToddNotTodd · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Again historians accept that Jesus was exceuted, that he was burried and that the disciples belived they had met the risen Jesus.

There's not even remotely universal acceptance of this.

Tolworth John said:
Your task is to prove this did not happen.

That's not the way the burden of proof works.

Tolworth John said:
Question. If the disciples lied about the resuresction, why where they prepared to die for what they knew was a lie?

Any number of reasons. To say that this necessarily points to an existent, supernatural Jesus would be an argument from ignorance.

Tolworth John said:
Why didn't the authorities stop them by producing the body of Jesus?

Any number of reasons. To say that this necessarily points to an existent, supernatural Jesus would be an argument from ignorance.

ToddNotTodd · Sep 29, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Where in the mass of information does reason tell us to be nice to each other?

It makes more logical sense to treat people well in a society where it's necessary to get along for that society to function smoothly. This is how reason plays a part in my morality.

Beyond reason, we tend to be more empathetic than not because we evolved as pack animals. I don't want to hurt people because it would make me feel bad to do so.

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