Outside the church, No salvation

[jdjr]

Hey guys, I came across this article on the Doctrine of Outside the Church, No Salvation, and it really intrigued me. The last line especially, in that it says that those, like Feeneyites, that are most radical about this point, are actually opposed to the Magisterium, and ironically place themselves outside the church.

I wonder what other people think? I am reletively new to the Catholic church and am still trying to get a handle on the whole invincible ignorance thing

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Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

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The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?



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Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.



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These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL​

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[princess_ballet]

No one is going to reply?

 

[CeeBee]

I know not much of this subject but hope someone else can come and help you.

 

[princess_ballet]

I've heard both, that's why I didn't answer. I was kinda waiting for an answer myself.

 

[geocajun]

jdjr,
I think the reason no one has responded, is that every time this comes up, it gets into a discussion about who is saved, and who is not saved.
It is fundamentally important, that everyone recognize at the onset of this type of discussion that we do not know who is not a part of the Church - the mystical Body of Christ.
We cannot pass judgement anyway... it simply is not our place, and the Church would not do such things either. What we do know from the Church, is that there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, and that means there is a lack of knowledge, which is impossible to overcome.
We also know that those with invincible ignorance, who try to live a moral life, and truely seek God out, will not be found guilty of having rejected the gift of faith, furthermore, those who truley seek to be part of the Church, are part of it by their desire - however imperfectly through lack of sacraments and religious instruction.
To speculate much further than that is dangerous and we should be very careful in those types of hypothetical discussions.

 

[princess_ballet]

Just to make sure I understand, basically, overally, we don't really know because the body of Christ isn't a "church" its a bunch of factors like this:

We also know that those with invincible ignorance, who try to live a moral life, and truely seek God out, will not be found guilty of having rejected the gift of faith,

and stuff?

 

[Carrye]

It is fundamentally important, that everyone recognize at the onset of this type of discussion that we do not know who is not a part of the Church - the mystical Body of Christ.

This is very important. We can know who is a part of the Church, but we do not know definitively who is not.

What we do know from the Church, is that there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, and that means there is a lack of knowledge, which is impossible to overcome.

CCC1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

We also know that those with invincible ignorance, who try to live a moral life, and truely seek God out, will not be found guilty of having rejected the gift of faith, furthermore, those who truley seek to be part of the Church, are part of it by their desire - however imperfectly through lack of sacraments and religious instruction.

Lumen Gentium 16: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Michelina]

Lumen Gentium 16: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace,

try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience

-- those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Carrie, to use an old catholic expression: Bingo!

http://www.nccbuscc.com/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"​

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience&#8212;those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

 

[geocajun]

Its funny, I spent around 30 minutes of class on Sunday, just on this topic, because after reading this paragraph in the CCC:

CCC-161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

the confirmandi were asking all kinds of questions about folks on deserted islands, etc...



It really got them thinking.

What is important here, is that we do not blur the objective requirement of being part of the Church (body of Believers) for salvation, and the subjective state ones soul can be in due to circumstances beyond their control.

 

[featherjinxer]

LOL there is almost the exact same thread in another forum I visit, her eit is if you are interested: http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=22826


The position of the Church, in my understanding, is no one knows if they will be saved or not. Saint's are assumed to have been...I'm not going to go into all that detai in this post. There is lots of info on that if you do a search, however. Try catholic.org or catholic.com
Of course, being Cathlolic, we believe we are the true Church, and thus with our sacraments etc, have a greater chance of staying the right path; we believe we are following God's teachings as He ment them. The Church does NOT, however, say you have to belong to her to be saved.

 

[jdjr]

jdjr,
I think the reason no one has responded, is that every time this comes up, it gets into a discussion about who is saved, and who is not saved.
It is fundamentally important, that everyone recognize at the onset of this type of discussion that we do not know who is not a part of the Church - the mystical Body of Christ.
We cannot pass judgement anyway... it simply is not our place, and the Church would not do such things either. What we do know from the Church, is that there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, and that means there is a lack of knowledge, which is impossible to overcome.
We also know that those with invincible ignorance, who try to live a moral life, and truely seek God out, will not be found guilty of having rejected the gift of faith, furthermore, those who truley seek to be part of the Church, are part of it by their desire - however imperfectly through lack of sacraments and religious instruction.
To speculate much further than that is dangerous and we should be very careful in those types of hypothetical discussions.

My point was not to talk about who is saved and who is not. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

My point was that the Magisterium has stated in Vatican II, as well as Pope Pius IX in 1863, that we do not know who is not going to be saved. That is for God to decide. I just found it ironic that the groups that claim to be most strict in this doctrine, SSPX, Feeneyites, sedavacantists, have in fact placed themselves in opposition to the Church, and therefore outside of her.

Does anyone else find this ironic?


I causes me to have a love for the Catholic church that is ever deepening The chruch is not elitist. She recognizes that God alone decides who is saved and who is not, and even the term anathema has a conotation of leaving things up to God. Popes have said these things despite being accused of wanting only ecclesiastical power. If the Magisterium only wanted power, why would they not try to retain the ability to say who is going to be saved and who isn't? The fact that they and the holy father, John Paul II have turned this power over to God where it belongs is greatly reassuring that they wish to be God's servants and fulfill His mission

I am so glad that I came to the Catholic church

 

[Michelina]

My point was that the Magisterium has stated in Vatican II, as well as Pope Pius IX in 1863, that we do not know who is not going to be saved. That is for God to decide. I just found it ironic that the groups that claim to be most strict in this doctrine, SSPX, Feeneyites, sedavacantists, have in fact placed themselves in opposition to the Church, and therefore outside of her.

I have always found it ironic, Jdjr.

The French have an expression: Who bites the Pope dies. They should know.

 

[geocajun]

as Peter Kreeft said, the Catholic Church takes the role of "mail man" in delivering the message given it, while so many other churches try to take the role of "editor".

 

[Atomagenesis]

Ah yes, the ye olde salvation thread.