Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

Ormly · Dec 2, 2007

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".

I wonder why?

You need to start acknowledging scripture presented you that refutes yiour argument; to be either relevant or not and stop attempting to side step the issue.

cygnusx1 · Dec 2, 2007

there is no scripture that says that all God's promises are conditional , once that mistake is admitted further understanding may develop , until then all there is is sidestepping/.

once you accept God promises certain things unconditionally , such as His commitment to Israel

Hos.14

[1] O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
[2] Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
[3] Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
[4] I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

, then it is easily perceived that God's love is unconditional and salvation is "of the Lord" , it is not of man's will or effort.

Jesus promised to save to the uttermost , not save us then place us and our salvation under probation.

effectual calling stands or falls with eternal security.

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Clearly this text is testimony to the effectual inner call , it is written ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

cygnusx1 · Dec 2, 2007

C H Spurgeon nailed it ;

I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness,there men shall weep and gnash their teeth.Matt:8v11-12.

Oh! I love God's "wills" and "shalls" there is nothing like them. If a man says "shall"what good is it? "I will" says a man, and he never performs, "I shall" says he, then he breaks his promise. But it is never that way with God's "shalls."If He says "shall," the thing shall be done, when He says "will," then it will be. Now here He has said, "many will come." The devil says, "they will not come," but "they will come." Their sins say "you cannot come," God says "you will come." You, yourselves say, "we will not come," God says "you will come." Yes! there are some here who are laughing at salvation, who can scoff at Christ and mock the gospel, but I tell you some of you will yet come.

"What!" you say, " can God make me become a christian?" I tell you yes, for herein lies the power of the gospel. It does not ask for your consent, but it gets it. It does not ask " will you recieve it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power. It does not violate your will, but it makes you willing. It shows you it's value, and then you fall in love with it, and immediately you run after it to make it yours. Many have said "we will not have anything to do with religion," then they get converted. I have heard of a man who once went to church only to hear the singing, and as soon as the minister began to preach, he put his fingers in his ears and refused to listen. But then a small insect landed on his face, so that he was obliged to take one finger from his ear to brush it away. Just then the minister said, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear." The man listened, and God met with him at that moment and converted his soul. He went out a new man. A changed person. He who came in to laugh, left to find a quiet place to pray, he who came in to mock went out to bend his knee in repentance, he who entered to spend an idle hour, went home to spend an hour in devotion to his God. The sinner became a saint. Who knows but that we might have some like that in here tonight. The gospel does not want your consent, it gets it. It knocks the hostility against God out of your heart. You say " I do not want to be saved," Christ says you shall be. He turns your will around, and then you cry " Lord save, lest I perish."- " Ah " heaven might exclaim "I knew that I would make you say that," and then He rejoices over you because He has changed your will and made you willing in the day of His power.

http://spurgeongemsbykerygma.blogspot.com/2007/10/mamy-shall-come-pt1.html

Then, again, it is an everlasting covenant from its sureness. Nothing is everlasting which is not secure. Man may erect his structures and think they may last for ever, but the Tower of Babel has crumbled, and the very Pyramids bear signs of ruin. Nothing which man has made is everlasting, because he cannot ensure it against decay. But as for the covenant of grace, well David say of it, "It is ordered in all things and sure." It is "Signed, and sealed, and ratified, In all things ordered well." There is not an "if" or a "but" in the whole of it from beginning to end. Free-will hates God's "shalls" and "wills," and likes man's "ifs" and "buts," but there are no "ifs" and "buts" in the covenant of grace. Thus the tenure runs: "I will" and "they shall." Jehovah swears it and the Son fulfills it. It is-it must be true. It must be sure, for "I AM" determines. "Hath he said and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" It is a sure covenant. http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0273.txt

Ormly · Dec 2, 2007

then you call God a liar

cygnusx1 · Dec 2, 2007

^ arguing just for the sake arguing is worthless , futile , waste of time and web-space , there are no scriptures that say God's promises are all conditional , such is your arguement.

many scriptures testify to many unconditional promises , once that is admitted further understanding may develop , until then all there is is sidestepping and deflection..

as it is written ;
let God be true and every man a liar.

who is the liar , he who disagrees with God ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Clearly this text is testimony to the effectual inner call , it is written ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

or he that says "this is not so because ............................." ?

effectual calling stands or falls with eternal security.

holdon · Dec 2, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
can Holdon tell us if as Christians we are promised a secure salvation ........ or does he think conditions are applied to salvation that could unsave a person?

Eph. 1:13 having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory.

Ormly · Dec 2, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
^ arguing just for the sake arguing is worthless , futile , waste of time and web-space , there are no scriptures that say God's promises are all conditional , such is your arguement.

Then start responding to the refutation to yours and stop wilfully ignoring what should not be overlooked . that is if you are sincere. Start with the two scriptures I gave you to review.

many scriptures testify to many unconditional promises , once that is admitted further understanding may develop , until then all there is is sidestepping and deflection..

More so exist that say all His promises are conditional. Again you wilfully ignore the truth of God's OWN words.

as it is written ;
let God be true and every man a liar.
who is the liar , he who agrees with God ;

Indeed. You need to you to repent . . . quickly.

[

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

Ormly said:
Then start responding to the refutation to yours and stop wilfully ignoring what should not be overlooked . that is if you are sincere. Start with the two scriptures I gave you to review.

there is nothing to respond to.

Did I not already say ,

"there is not one scripture anywhere that says "all God's promises are conditional" on the changing will of men , you may find evidence for certain conditional promises , but that is nothing new , ......... " cygnusx1

More so exist that say all His promises are conditional. Again you wilfully ignore the truth of God's OWN words.

more so ?

there isn't one scripture , not even one , never mind many that state that "all the promises of God are conditional" , sorry fella but you don't seem to be able to grasp what I have said.

Indeed. You need to you to repent . . . quickly.

It's not me who is denying scripture here .

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

who is the liar , he who agrees with God ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Clearly this text is testimony to the effectual inner call , it is written ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

but you must believe "this is not so because ............................." ?

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

holdon said:
Eph. 1:13 having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory.

thankyou holdon .

can you think of any reason why our security in salvation is conditional?

can you show scriptures where salvation under certain conditions may be forfeit ?

holdon · Dec 3, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
thankyou holdon .

can you think of any reason why our security in salvation is conditional?

can you show scriptures where salvation under certain conditions may be forfeit ?

No.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life."
And please note that it is NOT: "verily, verily, he that has been chosen has passed from death to life".

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

holdon said:
No.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life."
And please note that it is NOT: "verily, verily, he that has been chosen has passed from death to life".

thanks holdon.

so when someone stands up to the plate and announces that all God's promises are conditional , that you may still forfeit your eternal life ..... what is your reply holdon?

holdon · Dec 3, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
thanks holdon.

so when someone stands up to the plate and announces that all God's promises are conditional , that you may still forfeit your eternal life ..... what is your reply holdon?

I guess this was a question to you, not me. But since you're asking: if you have eternal life, you can't forfeit it. If you have been born of God, you cannot be "de"-born. Once a child always a child....

But the promise of eternal life is only for those who believe: so quite conditional.

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

holdon said:
I guess this was a question to you, not me. But since you're asking: if you have eternal life, you can't forfeit it. If you have been born of God, you cannot be "de"-born. Once a child always a child....

so Jesus promise that ;

"him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b

can be taken as true without adding conditions to it?

But the promise of eternal life is only for those who believe: so quite conditional.

we differ over this but only slightly.

holdon · Dec 3, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
so Jesus promise that ;

"him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b

can be taken as true without adding conditions to it?

" Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest."

we differ over this but only slightly.

No, I think here is where we differ the most....

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

holdon said:
" Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest." No, I think here is where we differ the most....

so if

"him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b

can be taken as an unchangeable unconditional promise why should John 6:37a be any different?

I see no reason why we should differ over this.

holdon · Dec 3, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
so if

"him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b

can be taken as a unchangeable promise why should John 6:37a be any different?

I see no reason why we should differ over this.

Because the condition is: "him that comes to me". Not: "he that is forced to go I will in no wise cast out....."

cygnusx1 · Dec 3, 2007

holdon said:
Because the condition is: "him that comes to me". Not: "he that is forced to go I will in no wise cast out....."

who mentioned anything about force ?

do you read force in the text , then why mention it ?

the text is clear ;

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

no condition mentioned .

then the flow continues ,

" and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b

two truths joined together , flowing perfectly with no clause , no condition , no reason to insert any possibilty of a conditional promise , or a false prediction.

are you really going to say that Jesus got it wrong , that some who are given Him might not come to him ? that is the bottom line.................

holdon · Dec 3, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
who mentioned anything about force ?

Well, the question obviously is: are we willingless given by the Father? I think that is what you think.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

But the question of course is then how they first got to the Father? Answer:

"Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me;"

Do you see the huge condition? Those that have learned from the Father, are given and come to the Son.

The Jews claimed they were already of the Father, yet despised the Son. That's why Jesus says: whatever (literally: because it was not limited to any class) that the Father giveth me, I will not at all cast out. The gospel is as far and wide as can be.

beloved57 · Dec 4, 2007

hold says

Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest."

So is this call to them that are not burdened and ladened ?

cygnusx1 · Dec 4, 2007

holdon said:
Well, the question obviously is: are we willingless given by the Father? I think that is what you think. But the question of course is then how they first got to the Father? Answer:

"Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me;"

Do you see the huge condition? Those that have learned from the Father, are given and come to the Son.

The Jews claimed they were already of the Father, yet despised the Son. That's why Jesus says: whatever (literally: because it was not limited to any class) that the Father giveth me, I will not at all cast out. The gospel is as far and wide as can be.

these questions have nothing to do with the text , you cannot argue that it all depends on what theological position a person holds determines a text , how are you going to react when the same insinuation is directed at you ;

*holdon only believes this text ,
" and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b , teaches osas because he is a believer in osas , if he didn't have a prior commitment to osas he would see a condition is over osas !!!

the bottom line is either we take the text as fact or we say Jesus really meant something he forgot to mention .

Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

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