Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[holdon]

an examination of scripture shows that eternal security does not take place after someone becomes a Christian

??? Can you explain that from your "examination of scripture", please? Am I to understand that someone is eternally secure before he is a Christian?

unlike the major inconsistant and flawed arguements of the 4 Point Armonians (holdon and Van).

I didn't know I was a 4 point Arminian. But hey, if you say so, I'll take it as a good thing.

 

[beloved57]

jips

No, if he did he'd have to resort to the old saw "that's what it says, but what it really means is..." that is the sole support from your hand-made, human-centered, unscriptural, cobbled-together, Open Theist, God-didn't-even-know "soteriology". But he doesn't, because he's willing to take the Bible at what it says, which is something that no Free Willy can ever do.

Your whole soteriology is made up from whole cloth; designed wholely to preserve human pride. Y'all can't stand the idea that if you're saved, it was God Who saved you and not yourselves. Y'all can't stand the idea that it isn't your merits, your faith, your goodness, your cleverness, your sagacity, or your wisdom that has caused you to "accept Christ" and thus deserve salvation. The idea that God saves who He will without any merit that we can understand is just too much for those of your party to swallow. That would leave no room for boasting, no credit for you, no elevation in position over any other sinner, no reason to feel smug or self-righteous. That would be altogether unacceptable, wuoldn't it? If you're not saved by your choices and your merits and your specialness, then it takes all the fun out of it.

Preach it man

But the Bible says that God has chosen, that God has predestined, and that God gives us the gift of salvation. So what can you do to maintain the ego-trip that says "I did it!"? You can't say the Bible was wrong, because then the self-serving truth-be-blowed nature of the game would be revealed. So you play the time-dishonored game of "that's what it says, but what it really means is...". So where the Bible says "He hath chosen us in Him", you say "It says "He hath chosen us in Him", but what it really means is "He hath not chosen us, He hath only chosen Him". Where the Bible says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves", you reply "That's what it says, but what it really means is 'we're saved by grace in consideration of our merits". In any of the multitude of places where the Bible specifically denies your doctrine, you simply replace it with a "meaning" that serves your purposes, without regard for what the Bible actually says.

Go ahead my brother , you preaching now..

Of course, that doesn't quite get it done either. Although most Christians believe that God is all-knowing, and that past, present, and future are all open books to Him, that takes some of the gloss off the All-Powerful *I*.
After all, even if God didn't foreordain anything, then His knowing ahead of time that it was going to happen might take away some of the credit for us affecting our own salvation. Since that's not to be allowed, you simply deny that God is all-knowing, and posit that He "learns" stuff as it happens. You stick Him in time along with His creation, and thus reduce Him to a manageable size.

You got this thang figured out aint ya ?

Thw whole thrust of the thing, then, is to take the power, the authority, and the knowledge, away from God and place it on the believer. "I found it", "I accepted Christ", "I saw the light", "I have decided", "I will arise and go", "I choose Jesus", "I sought the Lord", ad infinitum. Soli ego gloria, to *I* be the glory! I did it! (With some help from God, of course.) When you have God planed down enough, you can simply keep Him in your pocket and pull Him out from time to time to reassure you how much better you are than the hoi polloi who haven't saved themselves, and who don't have God with them.

Sounds familiar

2 thess 2

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And 2 tim 3


1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all

This describes it all . you have hit the nail on the head..

 

[cygnusx1]

John 6

[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
[36] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


so far so good , but notice the arguement for the inner call , the efficacious call is actually part and parcel of the same text !!

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Clearly this text is testimony to the effectual inner call , it is written ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

if they that are given to Christ (the elect) SHALL come to him , then there is no room for them NOT coming to Christ , the text is unconditional.

Those who wish to make it conditional , usually Arminians , will go a step further and make the second part of the same text also conditional , they will add to scripture what is not there.

Then the 4 point OSAS Arminian arrives (van and holdon) and wishes to add conditions to the first part of the text while refusing to add conditions to the latter part of the same text !!!
Why?

because it would destroy his arguement for OSAS from this text!

Thus the major inconsistancy of the half way , half-baked position of the 4 point Armonians.(van and holdon)

 

[Ormly]

God's promises are always conditional.

 

[cygnusx1]

God's promises are always conditional.

nonsense.

http://www.docrob.100megsfree5.com/agprom/agp002.htm

 

[Ormly]

nonsense.

Nope. You are wrong. Better think again.

By Myself have I sworn, said the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, . . . that in blessing I will bless thee. . . . Genesis 22:15-19.

You need to get off the "Twelve Tribes" bit and what all that doesn't mean to you and see things more clearly. Your thinking is one of the reasons the church today is in such dire straights. Because you have been lead to believe God's promises are unconditional, though for some strange reason you believe His atonement is, you believe you can be careless about your walk with the Lord; it won't matter because He will follow you instead of the only way around as it is meant to be. In fact I dare say you don't care if He follows or not. After all you are eternally secure, correct? His promises are unconditional, correct?

 

[holdon]

John 6

[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
[36] But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


so far so good , but notice the arguement for the inner call , the efficacious call is actually part and parcel of the same text !!

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Clearly this text is testimony to the effectual inner call , it is written ;

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

if they that are given to Christ (the elect) SHALL come to him , then there is no room for them NOT coming to Christ , the text is unconditional.

It is well known that when theology goes to town with a few preconceived notions, of course you can make the Bible say anything you want. But there is no word of "elect" in this portion. That is only conjecture. I might as well throw in
the Father loves the Son and hath given all things in His hand" and conclude that then all are saved. But of course we know from other texts that of those that the Father gave to Jesus, one was lost. (Jn 17). Now, of course you conveniently leave out the only condition that exists: belief in Jesus Christ. If you were not so preconditioned by "election unto salvation" you could see clear, but now you don't, because all must fit to that stupid idea that God elects who shall be saved and who not.

 

[Ormly]

It is well known that when theology goes to town with a few preconceived notions, of course you can make the Bible say anything you want. But there is no word of "elect" in this portion. That is only conjecture. I might as well throw in
the Father loves the Son and hath given all things in His hand" and conclude that then all are saved. But of course we know from other texts that of those that the Father gave to Jesus, one was lost. (Jn 17). Now, of course you conveniently leave out the only condition that exists: belief in Jesus Christ. If you were not so preconditioned by "election unto salvation" you could see clear, but now you don't, because all must fit to that stupid idea that God elects who shall be saved and who not.

It should be pointed out that the calling goes out to the already saved. "Few are chosen" from their ranks..

No one even considers that from the context of scripture.

 

[cygnusx1]

the Arminian makes all God's promises dependant upon fickle men , scripture opposes this view , the purpose of God does not depend on men , even a read through Romans 3 , 8 , 9 and 11 shows God's will is done His promises are not repealed or fallen fallow.

what shall we say ...

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom 8

[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom.9

[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


what are promises of God if not gifts and effectual callings , all unconditional.

 

[cygnusx1]

then comes the so called 1 point Calvinist who quotes many scriptures showing the truth of security of salvation , these texts easily prove no saved person is ever lost , should someone step forth and add to scripture saying these promises are conditional the 1 point calvinist sees straight away the folly of such a view ..... but is he consistant ?

does he also recognise the many texts showing the effectual call , or does he like the fully fledged Arminian make all depend upon man , even what God said He would do ? the inconstancy is obvious and fatal.

 

[Ormly]

the Arminian makes all God's promises dependant upon fickle men , scripture opposes this view , the purpose of God does not depend on men , even a read through Romans 3 , 8 , 9 and 11 shows God's will is done His promises are not repealed or fallen fallow.

what shall we say ...

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom 8

[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom.9

[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

again no conditions , those who insert them distort God's word and add to it ;

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


what are promises of God if not gifts and effectual callings , all unconditional.

If you truly understood th epurposes of God you wouldn't mingle it to confuse it with all the other unconnected thinking you post up. In fact you would post quit differently.

Now how 'bout addressing God's word to Abraham and not skip over like it won't be noticed? Here's a little more to bolster God's condition for blessing him: " And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice". See anything conditional in that given by God to Abraham? Sure you do. You just won't admit it.
Genesis 22:18 (KJV)

 

[holdon]

[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

No condition?

 

[cygnusx1]

No condition?

context context , that is speaking of Jews who are presently abiding in unbelief .... read the next part for Israel's conversion ; future!

 

[cygnusx1]

If you truly understood th epurposes of God you wouldn't mingle it to confuse it with all the other unconnected thinking you post up. In fact you would post quit differently.

Now how 'bout addressing God's word to Abraham and not skip over like it won't be noticed? Here's a little more to bolster God's condition for blessing him: " And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice". See anything conditional in that given by God to Abraham? Sure you do. You just won't admit it.
Genesis 22:18 (KJV)

there is not one scripture anywhere that says "all God's promises are conditional" on the changing will of men , you may find evidence for certain conditional promises , but that is nothing new , until you have a change of attitude everything you write will be reactionary and then seeking proof text to bolster your errors. I would say you haven't even begun starting to understand scripture until you see God's Sovereignty.As long as you see everything depend upon man , I have nothing more to say to you , why you haven't even got a hope of abiding in heaven if it is all down to you , man you are trusting in not God.

God promised never to flood the earth again , where is that a conditional promise !!!!!!!!!

 

[holdon]

context context , that is speaking of Jews who are presently abiding in unbelief .... read the next part for Israel's conversion ; future!

I quoted from the context itself. It is as clear as water that belief is required to be grafted back in.

 

[cygnusx1]

I quoted from the context itself. It is as clear as water that belief is required to be grafted back in.

God is going to "banish ungodliness from Jacob" ....... not He is thinking about it if the Jews let Him !

faith is instrumental in salvation not it's cause.

 

[Ormly]

there is not one scripture anywhere that says "all God's promises are conditional" on the changing will of men , you may find evidence for certain conditional promises , but that is nothing new.

Then you MUST be certain from scripture which ones are which, correct?

As far as me finding evidence, I doubt if I can any that will satisfy you. But you make me laugh and I will ty to amuse you. Pay attention now:

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins." Leviticus 26:21 (NKJV)

"If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword"; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken." Isaiah 1:19-20 (NKJV)

If you want to argue these out, argue with God. There are many more but for rational people sincere about learning the Lord, these two should suffice.


BTW, are you the guy in the red baret on your personal page?

 

[holdon]

God is going to "banish ungodliness from Jacob" ....... not He is thinking about it if the Jews let Him !

Of course it is only through faith:

For the scripture says, No one believing on him shall be ashamed. 10:12 For there is no difference of Jew and Greek; for the same Lord of all is rich towards all that call upon him. 10:13 For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

faith is instrumental in salvation not it's cause.

Here is from the chapter Paul quotes from:

Behold, Jehovah's hand is not shortened that it cannot save, neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear; 59:2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he doth not hear.
And:

And the Redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith Jehovah.

That's the condition, pure and simple. It requires faith and repentance.

 

[cygnusx1]

through faith is secondary to Grace , God's grace being free (see Romans 3 [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ) Grace is the source of faith ....... conditions are to do with works not unconditional promises .

God's shall's are a certainty.

the elect shall be given to Christ , they shall not be lost not one.

 

[cygnusx1]

can Holdon tell us if as Christians we are promised a secure salvation ........ or does he think conditions are applied to salvation that could unsave a person?