Outcomes of gender inequality

[Ken Behrens]

Are you familiar with the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi?

Yes. But I'm not sure if it actually works in practice.

 

[Paidiske]

I think it does. It's why how we worship matters.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I think it does. It's why how we worship matters.

Let me get more detailed. I watched every episode of Blue Heelers (one of the most entertaining shows I have seen in my life) including the two years when Catholic Chief Sergeant Tom Croydon was courting and married to Anglican vicar Grace Curtis. I saw the women's committee that took charge of the clothing for the poor, and the man who did the church bookkeeping, the man who did the maintenance, the women running the Christmas pageant committee, etc. and it all rang true with my Roman Catholic upbringing. The Anglican church allows, and even encourages women ordained for full participation at all levels, and the Roman Catholic church is the exact opposite. Yet, the money is handled by a man, and the "helping the poor" and coordinating the young people are woman's tasks in both groups. And Grace was raped and murdered (she could have just as easily been killed in a home invasion or attack on the church) in the end as revenge against Tom. This is why I am not certain that a change in how we worship is making a difference in the social life of the church, or in how we perceive women. Lex crendendi=lex orandi is true enough, but I don't see the lex vivendi changing, and that is the next step in filtering down the equality that I believe God wants in the world.

Granted that was 2002-4 that this was broadcast, but has it changed in the last 13 years?

 

[Paidiske]

Well, firstly, a tv show is only ever an approximation to reality, and I've never seen a tv show I really thought did justice to portraying ministry. (Rev. came close in its early season but I thought less so towards the end).

I think the key thing about the money handling is that in Anglican churches, the money is not handled by the clergy. I don't count it, store it, bank it, or have access to the accounts, nor do I make decisions about how to spend it. We have a healthy separation of powers there. I've known church treasurers who were both men and women. So that gets a shrug from me. And things like donations for the poor I've seen handled by both men and women.

If there are any areas where I see significant gender division of lay roles, it's in children's ministry and flower arranging, both of which are female-dominated. And that used to be less true 13 years ago for children's ministry, but today good men are often simply afraid to be involved, because of the way it will be perceived.

Oh, one other thing that may or may not be a quirk of my diocese... women are over-represented as chaplains. I suspect because these roles are felt to be more family-friendly than parish ministry.

 

[All4Christ]

Well, firstly, a tv show is only ever an approximation to reality, and I've never seen a tv show I really thought did justice to portraying ministry. (Rev. came close in its early season but I thought less so towards the end).

I think the key thing about the money handling is that in Anglican churches, the money is not handled by the clergy. I don't count it, store it, bank it, or have access to the accounts, nor do I make decisions about how to spend it. We have a healthy separation of powers there. I've known church treasurers who were both men and women. So that gets a shrug from me. And things like donations for the poor I've seen handled by both men and women.

If there are any areas where I see significant gender division of lay roles, it's in children's ministry and flower arranging, both of which are female-dominated. And that used to be less true 13 years ago for children's ministry, but today good men are often simply afraid to be involved, because of the way it will be perceived.

Oh, one other thing that may or may not be a quirk of my diocese... women are over-represented as chaplains. I suspect because these roles are felt to be more family-friendly than parish ministry.

In the Orthodox Church, while priests and deacons are only men, all the other roles are fairly equally represented by me and women. There is a stronger representation of women in the children's ministry, though both men and women are involved. Our priest doesn't handle money (current treasurer is a woman). The parish council is about half men and half women. Both men and women clean and take care of the church. Both men and women bake the prosfora (communion) bread. Both men and women cook for fellowship hour, though more women volunteer as the primary POC. Often families work together in that ministry. We do have women chaplains, even though we don't have women priests. Honestly, the main thing women aren't permitted to do are positions that consecrate / administer the sacraments (sacerdotal ministry).

 

[Dave-W]

If there are any areas where I see significant gender division of lay roles, it's in children's ministry and flower arranging, both of which are female-dominated. And that used to be less true 13 years ago for children's ministry, but today good men are often simply afraid to be involved, because of the way it will be perceived.

The congregation I attended in college in the 70s had men doing everything. The ONLY place where women could serve in the congregation was as a musician or singer. (and you had to be GOOD)

That meant that even in the infant nursery all the workers were guys. (mostly singles in their late teens or early 20s)

That was not a good situation by any stretch.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Well, firstly, a tv show is only ever an approximation to reality, and I've never seen a tv show I really thought did justice to portraying ministry. (Rev. came close in its early season but I thought less so towards the end).

I think the key thing about the money handling is that in Anglican churches, the money is not handled by the clergy. I don't count it, store it, bank it, or have access to the accounts, nor do I make decisions about how to spend it. We have a healthy separation of powers there. I've known church treasurers who were both men and women. So that gets a shrug from me. And things like donations for the poor I've seen handled by both men and women.

If there are any areas where I see significant gender division of lay roles, it's in children's ministry and flower arranging, both of which are female-dominated. And that used to be less true 13 years ago for children's ministry, but today good men are often simply afraid to be involved, because of the way it will be perceived.

Oh, one other thing that may or may not be a quirk of my diocese... women are over-represented as chaplains. I suspect because these roles are felt to be more family-friendly than parish ministry.

This reminds me of something I want to ask you. America has seen a proliferation of "Safe sanctuary policies". Many churches have polices of the type: No adult (other than a parent) may be alone with a child or children on church property, but must have another adult with them. and/or: anyone in ministry to children must have a complete thorough background check by the police prior to ministering, and such check is usually repeated every few years. Some of these checks are very detailed including such things all places lived for 30 years back. The purpose is to prove conclusively that there is no hint of possible abuse.

Do you folks have such a thing? An even more appropriate question, do such policies lead to the exclusion of men, because of pre-conceived social notions that men are more likely to abuse a child?

Chaplain training here is highly structured and controlled, to keep the non-seminary trained clergy out. One policy is must be seminary trained, another is, for the hospital in Delaware, where I live, required, I think 16 weeks, 30 hrs. a week. Most clergy bypass it, and enter to see their congregation members, and then just happen to say hi to others as they go.

 

[Paidiske]

You can download the handbook which outlines our requirements here: http://www.melbourneanglican.org.au...y/Documents/Duty-of-Care-Handbook-Nov2012.pdf

This is about to be thoroughly revised, because after the Royal Commission into institutional responses to child abuse, the government has introduced a whole bunch of new standards and there are more things we have to take into account now (for example, I don't think the current handbook has anything about cultural safety of indigenous or culturally and linguistically diverse children, but the new standards do).

Do the policies lead to the exclusion of men? Not directly, I think. But some men just avoid being involved in ministry with children because they are afraid of what people will think of them.

I was thinking more broadly than hospital chaplaincy, too. School chaplaincy is popular among women; a school hours ministry job!

 

[Ken Behrens]

You can download the handbook which outlines our requirements here: http://www.melbourneanglican.org.au...y/Documents/Duty-of-Care-Handbook-Nov2012.pdf

This is about to be thoroughly revised, because after the Royal Commission into institutional responses to child abuse, the government has introduced a whole bunch of new standards and there are more things we have to take into account now (for example, I don't think the current handbook has anything about cultural safety of indigenous or culturally and linguistically diverse children, but the new standards do).

Do the policies lead to the exclusion of men? Not directly, I think. But some men just avoid being involved in ministry with children because they are afraid of what people will think of them.

I was thinking more broadly than hospital chaplaincy, too. School chaplaincy is popular among women; a school hours ministry job!

Thank you so much. That WWCC is like a shock in American culture. In the 1970's, I was in full time music ministry in parishes, and customarily taught children school music classes. I have stayed away from any interaction with children since 1995 just because of our (far more lenient) rules. I recall doing a community service class through a church in worship music improvisation two years ago, in which I taught at a small private Christian school, where there were always sufficient teachers for it not to be an issue. Faced with such regulations, I would choose not to minister rather than comply (not that there is anything wrong; there is not.) Of course, I think with an American point of view.

We do not have school chaplains here, as church and state must remain separate. It is either a church-run school, so does not need a chaplain, or it is a state-run school, and may not have one. We have several "informal" chaplains, which are volunteer or part time workers in other programs, such as food service, or child-family social work, who "moonlight" as chaplains. In one local year 5-8 "middle school", the daughter of a pastor is such a worker and has organized a 50 member praise team and Bible study, that has performed for some of our city-wide events.

PS, that manual is very well done. Things I have always done automatically anyway, but it is good to see it collected in such a format.

 

[Paidiske]

Why would a church school not need a chaplain? Surely a church run school would want someone to be a pastoral presence and lead worship?

The WWCC is just part of life here now. For any community group or school or anything where there are children and you work or volunteer you must have one. Sometimes older people are affronted, but for my generation we've never known any different.

 

[WolfGate]

My kids go to a private Christian school here in the US. They most certainly have a Chaplain, two if I remember correctly. Some of the need may depend on size. Their school goes from Kindergarten to 12th grade, with roughly 80 kids in each grade. And while the school is affiliated with a church, they are located several miles from each other. Perhaps a small school located with the church could have a pastor serve that role, but it seems that would get cumbersome quickly

 

[Ken Behrens]

Why would a church school not need a chaplain? Surely a church run school would want someone to be a pastoral presence and lead worship?

The WWCC is just part of life here now. For any community group or school or anything where there are children and you work or volunteer you must have one. Sometimes older people are affronted, but for my generation we've never known any different.

Needing a chaplain is one thing. Changing the constitution to allow one to be hired is quite another. Worship is NOT permitted, period. It must be after hours, student led, and no general invitation may be sent. (Obviously, Christian faculties have gotten some "illegal" things in. It's sort of a quiet "don't ask, don't tell" situation)

It is becoming an increasing matter of scandal, as in some few cases, non-Christian worship is being led by teachers as examples for cultural sensitivity expansion, but Christian worship is outlawed. Teachers have been fired for even having a Bible visible on their desk. Cases of students being required to recite Moslem, and even pagan, prayers have occurred. A few people have managed to bring in Christian speakers officially, but only as part of a week of "comparative religion training."

 

[PloverWing]

Needing a chaplain is one thing. Changing the constitution to allow one to be hired is quite another. Worship is NOT permitted, period. It must be after hours, student led, and no general invitation may be sent.

I think you and Paidiske are miscommunicating. Worship is not permitted as an official school activity in the public schools, but Paidiske was asking about a church-run (private) school having chaplains. Chaplains would be permitted in private schools in the US.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I think you and Paidiske are miscommunicating. Worship is not permitted as an official school activity in the public schools, but Paidiske was asking about a church-run (private) school having chaplains. Chaplains would be permitted in private schools in the US.

You are correct, but I thought this was understood, as I mentioned the two types earlier. Of the church run schools I know, none have "chaplains", but all have a pastor or two in residence or at least on call. Worship is daily, and teacher led for the most part, with students taking an active role.

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe that's the difference between demographics again. Here, most of the church schools are either Catholic or Anglican, so that model is less of a cultural fit.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Maybe that's the difference between demographics again. Here, most of the church schools are either Catholic or Anglican, so that model is less of a cultural fit.

Absolutely, our religious histories are very different.

Here, state schools are non-religious, and tax supported.

The other options are Catholic schools, private schools (some religious, some not), and church schools, which includes Anglican, of which there are very few, and those of hundreds of other denominations and non-denominations. Parents often deny themselves many luxuries to arrange to pay the tuition demanded by any other type of school. The church operating the school responds by making daily worship standard, and pastors available on-site, at least a few hours a week.

A significant number of Christian parents teach their children at home, which is permissible (and cheaper financially, though more demanding), and checked by annual achievement exams. There are many organizations supporting this endeavor, most Christian, and regional trips, publications, special textbook publishers, and group workshops supplement the home instruction. It is typical, by the way, that home-schooled students normally outperform public school students on measures of achievement, such as college entrance exams.

 

[All4Christ]

You are correct, but I thought this was understood, as I mentioned the two types earlier. Of the church run schools I know, none have "chaplains", but all have a pastor or two in residence or at least on call. Worship is daily, and teacher led for the most part, with students taking an active role.

Some of the private Christian schools around me do have chaplains, especially evangelical schools. The Baptist school has a pastor assigned to it instead. Alternatively, nuns are assigned to the Catholic schools, who are in residence there.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Some of the private Christian schools around me do have chaplains, especially evangelical schools. The Baptist school has a pastor assigned to it instead. Alternatively, nuns are assigned to the Catholic schools, who are in residence there.

Where are you? This is the first I have heard of such a thing.

 

[All4Christ]

Where are you? This is the first I have heard of such a thing.

Central PA. We have a wide variety of models.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Central PA

I lived in Berks County several years. Never noticed any.