Our view of the State of the Dead (part 1 of 5)

[PaleHorse]

The State of the Dead as taught by the Bible and the Bible only

First let me say, for the sake of ease and clarity, this essay is by no means exhaustive in nature. By that I mean I have not given every single example found in the Bible to support the following questions and arguments; I have included the ones I feel best explain each section. I could literally write a book if I wanted to show every example for this study but it is unnecessary for the plain teaching of the Bible on this topic is very clear. However, I will address the arguments I’ve heard that are in favor of the “immortal soul” and the teaching of going to heaven/hell immediately following death near the end of this paper. As such, this has become a fairly long essay. But it is vital that people understand the relationship between what happens to us at death and how that ties into our going to hell or heaven. I could have made this essay much shorter simply by doing a breakdown of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which is included herein) but I wanted to make sure that there was not room for doubt or error by comparing many verses together to ensure we have a solid picture of what the scriptures actually teach on this topic. This is my personal study, as such, please forgive any spelling/grammatical errors I've made.

To answer the question of the state of the dead, we must first define what the Bible says a soul is:
How was man created?
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man was not given a soul – he became a living soul. Don't miss that. “Soul” and “spirit” are not the same thing. It is the unity of body and breath-of-life that constitute the soul. You ARE a soul; you do not HAVE a soul. It is sad that an educated clergy gets this part wrong in most churches, and in doing so, the rest of what happens after we die gets distorted based off this first failing step.

For those that are mathematically minded, the idea can be expressed as such:
Physical body (dust) + breath of life (spirit - ruwach) = living soul (a wholism of the two - nephesh)

The Hebrew word for soul is"nephesh". Nephesh was translated into many different English words for the KJV Bible (for instance; creature, beast, man, fish, thing, person or persons, etc) but an important thing one should plainly see is that none of the translations refer to it as being something that survives the death of the body nor does it mean that in the original Hebrew. It was used to describe the "wholism" of life - not a "dualism" as was latter taught by the Greeks (Plato to be precise) and is unfortunately with us still today.
The Hebrew word for spirit is "ruwach". This word means breath or air and these terms are used interchangeably. The Hebrew word “ruwach” appears 377 times in the Bible; 117 times translated as wind/air, 33 times as breath, and 227 times as spirit. There is no indication that there is any memory, consciousness, ego, or character associated with it in ANY of the verses. Also, there is no implication that it is immortal. Check it out for yourself if you have any doubts.

Can/does the soul die?
Ezekial 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 & 20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

These five verses show the same equation (if you will), in reverse:

Physical body (dust) – breath of life (spirit) = death (the ceasing of the two)


Let’s verify that the “breath of life” equates to the spirit:
Genesis 7:22 - All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job 27:3 - All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
What is in the nostrils? Some immortal memory-retaining substance? No, figuratively and literally it is the breath.

As you can see, the breath of life and the spirit are one and the same and are used interchangeably. Does the spirit have thoughts or memory?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 - No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, the spirit (breath - ruwach) that returns to God at death is not mentioned as being immortal nor does it contain any memory or information of the individual or any conscience whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite has been seen; the dead don’t know anything nor can they gain any further reward towards heaven.

Who is/has immortality now?
1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Deuteronomy 33:27 - The eternal God is thy refuge, ...

ONLY God has immortality right now, 1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 makes that abundantly clear. The question is can humans achieve it, and if so, how?
Mark 10:17 - And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Notice, the questions in the verses above talk about inheriting eternal life – that is a future tense event not a current one. They were asking what they had to do to inherit eternal life; which also says they didn't already have it. So, what did they, and we, have to do to inherit eternal life?

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 Timothy 6:19 - Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Again we find that eternal life is a future event but it’s conditional; you must believe in Him.

Titus 3:7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Heirs receive an inheritance.
Hebrews 9:15 - And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

These verses clearly show that eternal life is NOT an automatic thing – it is something that is hoped for, something that must be given by God or inherited from God.

So, if eternal life (either in heaven or hell) is not granted at death, then when is it?
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
1.Cor.15:52 which says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice that all of these verses (and this is by no means all of the scriptural references) talk of a future event (His coming) in which the dead are raised. There is no mention of souls going to either heaven or hell immediately after death. That is a Hellenistic (pagan Greek teaching made popular by Plato) teaching that was introduced in the 400+ years between the writings of the Old and New Testaments. But the details of that are outside of the scope of this study.

So what does happen when we die?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If that verse doesn’t explain our position then nothing will. The Bible, not me, clearly likens death to “sleep” and calls it such many times. At the end of this study I’ll provide many more supporting scriptures for this fact. Also note; the dead in Christ ARE STILL HERE AND ALL THE RIGHTEOUS RISE AT THE SAME TIME. Christ descends from heaven and we rise to meet Him then; not before, not later, but at that moment. There is no second chance as is being taught by popular Christianity. That is a dangerous myth, a fable. But let me further prove that position.

(end part 1)

 

[PaleHorse]

Let’s look at the story of Lazarus (not the Parable of Lazarus, which we’ll look at near end of this study):
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that 1) Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and 2) in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days. Agreed? Now, let’s continue:
Verse 43-44: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days – if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this? Lazarus does not come back to life with any stories of where he was, what he saw, or anything. He doesn’t talk about walking on streets of gold nor burning with fire. After being resurrected he does speak – and all he says is a simple acknowledgement of who was standing there with Jesus.
Why doesn’t Lazarus have any such stories of an afterlife? The Bible tells us why:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 - No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, when do we get our reward?
Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 5:12 - Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6:23 - Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Notice that the “reward” comes when Jesus comes back – not before and not after. Nor does it make a lick of sense that if people were already in heaven that Jesus would send them back to earth to re-resurrect them. That would serve no purpose at all and the Bible simply does not teach that. That is a fairytale and I challenge anyone to produce any scripture in favor of that teaching.

Let’s look at Christ’s example on the cross and I’ll include the thief in this point since many cite this as a reason to believe that we go immediately to heaven or hell following death:
Luke 23:42, 43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
So, as we learned earlier the word “spirit” (ruach) simply means His breath. But now we’ll verify many of the things established in this paper:
1) Did Jesus ascend to heaven that day? No.
Remember, Jesus died on a Friday (day of preparation – Luke 23:54), laid dead in the sepulchre all of Saturday (Sabbath – again Luke 23:54), rose on Sunday, and
John 20:1 - The first day of the week (Sunday still) cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
(Luke 24:21 further verifies it was three days)
John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was dead and rose on the third day and still had not yet ascended to heaven.
2) Did the thief die that day? No.
In fact, the Jews didn’t want anyone hanging on the cross during their Sabbath day so the Romans broke the legs of the thief and the other (neither of which had died yet) so that when they took the crosses down they wouldn’t run away (John 19:31-33).
3) Did the thief even ask to be taken to heaven that day? No. The thief knew his theology – what did he ask?
Luke 23:42, 43 - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom...

The thief did not ask to be taken to heaven when he died but when Christ would return. This is very important to understand, don't miss it.

Never has the misplacement of a comma ever caused so much trouble. Remember, neither Greek nor Hebrew contains any form of punctuation nor capitalization – the translators put those in when they translated to English.
Is it possible they were swayed by a preconceived notion? Maybe so.
Are they “inspired” as the writers of the Bible were? No, certainly not.
Were they just being consistent? YES! Check it out; any time in the Bible where Jesus says “verily I say unto thee” there is always a comma immediately following the phrase. The translators were merely being consistent in their translation and I can't fault them for that - but this time it was at the expense of the true meaning of what Jesus actually said.
Am I wrong? Well let’s test that. Let's see if there are examples of misplaced commas in other places in the Bible just to see if this is possible:
Acts 19:12 - So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Now ask yourself, were the handkerchiefs sick? Did they have evil spirits in them? No. According to the way this sentence is written then they were, right? Doesn't it stand to reason that the comma is misplaced? I would think so.
Let’s see another example:

Genesis 16:1 - Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Was Sarai Abram his name? No. The commas are missing between the names – it should read “Now Sarai, Abrams’s wife, bare him…” There are many others – the point is that punctuation mistakes DID happen and the example of the thief on the cross is merely another one that can easily be corrected if people would correlate the meaning to the plain teachings found in the rest of the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself but sometimes one must look a bit deeper than the surface to see that. There are other punctuation mistakes; check out 2 Peter 3:12 (it’s a statement, not a question) & Hebrews 4:8 (it’s a question, not a statement).

Let’s get two more examples that further show people do not go to heaven or hell upon death:
2 Peter 2:9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
Acts 2:29-34 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (grave), neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
What Paul is saying here is simple and yet vital; David is still dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven even though David was promised to do so by God Himself. If David is not in heaven even years after his death (and with the promise from God) then what makes people think they will go to heaven immediately after death? The Bible simply does not teach that.

Job understood well what happens after death and how/when the resurrection takes place; let’s see what he says:
Job 14:10-14 - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (yes, that is the very question at hand - where is he?) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: 1) till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, 2) until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till 3) my change come.

I numbered those parts for a reason. When we break down the references of what he says here we find the following:
1. 2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2. Revelation 15:1-2 - And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Here is another example of the sequence of events that occur; we experience death, get buried and stay there until Jesus returns, then we are raised up and given glorified bodies (if we are righteous), then we meet Christ in the air. It is very simple.

Lastly, let’s look at what Jesus Himself had to say about this:
John 14:1-3 - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Was Christ lying? Has Christ come again yet and received us? No. If He had come then the world would have been utterly destroyed (see 2 Peter 3:10)

(end part 2)

 

[PaleHorse]

Here is how it all comes together:
John 5:28-29 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
2 Timothy 4:6-8 - For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Here is the best verse to explain it:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Basically, in today’s terms, here is what happens:
1. When we die we are truly dead; we know not anything, we do not praise God nor can we get any further reward; the body returns to the earth and the spirit/breath to God. Death is likened to sleep in the Bible over 23 times (*see last section of this paper). Some call it “sleeping in Christ” and some call it “soul sleep” – it doesn’t matter what you call it for it is what it is. “Sleeping in Christ” is just a poetic way of talking about the righteous that are dead – they are sleeping in Christ. And there is no mention anywhere in the scriptures that says the spirit is conscious, has memory, or is anything more than what it says it is - breath.
2. We get buried (usually – but it doesn’t matter to God how we are put to rest) and we stay there until Christ comes.
3. Now a split occurs when Christ returns; the righteous dead and living are called up in glorified bodies to meet Christ in the air to get our reward (eternal life) and the wicked dead stay in the graves and the wicked alive are slain at Christ's return (remember, there are TWO resurrections just as John 5:28-29, Dan12:2 and 1 Thess 4:16 states).
4. The alive wicked are slain by the Word of God and Satan is bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2 & 3). After 1,000 years (known to some as the Millennium – see Rev 20:2-7) the righteous (saints) return to earth with Jesus and the wicked are resurrected in order to receive their judgment.
5. THAT is when the lake of fire is created and the wicked, along with Satan and with their sin, are destroyed for eternity (*see Rev 19:20 & Rev 20:10-15)
6. Then, and only then, is the new earth created for us for all eternity just as God’s plan originally meant for it to be (*see Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, and Revelation 21:1).

I'm not being hardheaded nor self-righteous; this is the clear truth of the Bible, God’s word to us and I have shown that it is repeated numerous times throughout the Bible. This is not the teaching of some denomination but only that of the Bible and the Bible alone. It bothers me that there are so many crazy theories out there in the Christian world about this topic; for if they just read the Bible themselves then there wouldn't be all this confusion and error. People would know that there isn't a secret rapture nor a seven-year triblulation afterwhich people get a second chance (the concept of which totally negates living by faith by the way). I'll be blunt, you are either "right" with God when you die or else you are lost, period. I hate to sound hard-nosed but that is just the way it is. Doubt that? Read the next section carefully. I'll address purgatory first.

I'll address the arguments people use in favor of the immortal soul or that the soul goes immediately to heaven/hell after death.
By now you should note that anything even resembling purgatory simply does not exist in the Bible. It does not fit chronolgically either. Catholics rely largely on "the pit" found in Revelation for this teaching but I think in doing so they overlook something; the fact that the Beast is there in chains for 1,000 years. Let's look at some of the key verses in Revelation 9 that talks about the pit - it is best if you read the entire chapter for yourselves though:
Revelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Revelation 9:2 - And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 9:11 - And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Revelation 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
A couple of things to note:
Abaddon (seen in Rev 9:11 above) is a Hebrew word meaning "the Destroyer" denoting the angel-prince of hell; also known as Satan; check your Concordance. Lucifer was/is an angel. This word is only used once in the scriptures. The above verses are talking about the ushering in, the time of, and the ending of the Millenium (see Rev 20:3). This isn't very hard to figure out - the bottomless pit is the earth (Rev 9:2 clues into that) at a time when Satan is the only one left alive on it. The judgement has not come yet (nor the lake of fire which is Hell as we know it) for that doesn't happen until Rev 19:20. Notice there is no mention of a place where people are tortured until they are "good enough" to then go on to heaven. Even the following terms (in their original Hebrew) never denoted the like:
Gehenna: was the place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch and was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem. When Jesus walked by it and saw the corpses in there He would tell his disciples "that is what the pit will be like" (paraphrase). Gehenna is only a figurative word for hell - not an actual. It generically means a place for the lost or unsaved, i.e. the damned. But here is the kicker - notice when it occurs - BEFORE the lake of fire during the 1,000 years that Satan is chained.
Sheol: simply means the grave, the place of burial. This word was translated "hell" but does not really mean "a place of everlasting fire" at all.

Conclusion: The notion of purgatory is totally alien to Biblical teaching. Purgatory is a uniquely Catholic teaching that has no Biblical support that I can find nor that makes sense when compared to the plain teaching of the scriptures.

People often quote “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. This is probably the #1 misquoted verse in the Bible. Here is how the verse actually reads:
2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
See the difference? Paul was not saying that being absent from the body equals being present with the Lord; he was saying (like any of us would agree) that he’d RATHER be absent from the body in order to be present with the Lord. That is all he was saying in this verse. Those who misquote or only give a partial verse are dangerous whether they be a preacher or anyone else for they are spreading a teaching of error that does not fit with the clear teaching of the scriptures.

Think on this verse for it makes it very clear:
Isaiah 26:19 - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
It says “dead body” not spirit. The dead will be raised in a fleshy body. ALL the examples found in the scriptures support full fleshy body ressurection only.
(end part 3)

 

[PaleHorse]

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

(The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man can be found in Luke 16:19-31, please read it now so that the rest of this makes sense.)

First off, we have to determine IF this is a parable; let’s examine it:

When Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man were there many people gathered?
Luke 15:1 - Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Ok, yes, there was a group/multitude present. Point #1.
Matthew 13:34 - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Jesus spoke ONLY in parables to the multitudes. Point #2 and slam dunk just based off this, but let's go further:

Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables: The parable of the Lost Sheep, the parable of the Lost Coin, the parable of the Lost Son, the parable of the Shrewd Manager, and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. By the way, even the NIV translation defines this story as being a parable – thus not to be taken literally.

The parable of the Shrewd Manager begins EXACTLY like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; “There was a certain rich man…..” How is that for putting together like topics?

Many people say that when we die our physical body returns to dust (which is true) but they also say that our “soul” goes to heaven without our body (oops - wrong). They go on to say that at the resurrection, our souls are reunited with our physical bodies and they become glorified. With that in mind let's look at the facts: the rich man in the parable was buried (Luke 16:22), yet the very next verse says he had EYES to look up with. Luke 16:24 says the buried Rich Man had a TONGUE. The parable also says Lazarus has a FINGER and Abraham has a BOSOM. Do these physical attributes apply to a soul? Not according to Jesus. Doesn’t that blow the theory of “our souls reunite with our bodies”? Jesus said in Luke 24:39 that a spirit does not have flesh and bones!!
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
I think we should believe Christ, don't you?

John 14:1-3 says the eternal home of the saved is in heaven, not Abraham’s bosom:
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, there ye may be also.
Is Jesus in Abraham’s bosom? No. Study the scriptures and you will find what is meant by bosom and that will give you a clearer picture of what is going on here; I’ll just tell you now that “Abraham’s bosom” is not heaven. I strongly urge readers to find out for themselves.

In the parable a great gulf exists between Lazarus and the Rich Man. This gulf is so vast in expanse that it is impossible for those on one side to pass through to the other side. In spite of this, the Rich Man is able to recognize both Abraham and Lazarus as well as hold an intelligent conversation? Does that make sense? No. This story is a parable and thus not to be taken literally. This parable actually illustrates how one should live, not how we die.

Another argument that I’ve heard is that the “glorified body” that we receive is a spiritual body and not one of flesh and bone.
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This is Christ talking to the apostles when they first see Him after He rose from the grave. Does Christ say here that He is in a spiritual body or a flesh one? More on this point below.

Let’s look at the example of Jesus and see how He ascended:
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
This verifies that Christ had a physical body, not a spiritual one, after He resurrected. Agreed?
And then we find: John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
This verifies that Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven, agreed?
Acts 1:3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
This shows that Jesus was here on earth for 40 days after His resurrection – He did not ascend immediately following death.
And finally:
Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:22 - Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Here it is told of Jesus ascending to heaven. No where does it indicate that only Jesus’ spirit went to heaven and His body stayed behind – on the contrary, the disciples watched Him ascend with their own eyes. And since there is no information to show any change in Christ’s presence (switching from body to spirit) the only logical thing that can be concluded from this is that Christ went up in bodily form.
Further, if we are taken up in spiritual bodies, and such bodies do not require food or drink then reconcile these verses for me:
Isaiah 36:17 - Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.
Isaiah 65:17 & 21 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind…And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Do spirits require food, drink, and shelter? No. We go to heaven in a fully fleshy body (the whole living soul as defined in Genesis).

Some people have tried to say the following supports Jesus had a spiritual body after His resurrection and not a physical one:
John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Now, when you compare this verse to the others where Jesus clearly says He is flesh I think it is a huge assumption to say that Jesus walked through the wall (and was thus in a spiritual body) to be with His disciples. I’m not joking, that is what has been argued to me. The plain teaching of the Bible is that Jesus had a physical body after His resurrection and maintained that state even at His ascension. He probably entered the room via the door like anyone with a body of flesh would do; I know it doesn't say He used the door but the Bible also doesn't say Jesus dressed Himself either - see what I mean?

The big question concerning those that will burn in hell centers around the character of God. Do we agree that God is good and merciful? Yes. Is God fair? Yes. Is God a tyrant? I say no, He isn’t. With that said, how can people burn in hell for eternity? Wouldn’t that also mean they have eternal life? Would it be fair for Cain (who killed his brother) to burn in hell about 4,000 years longer than Hitler? It is this belief that "sinners burn in hell forever" that has caused so many to turn from God and the teachings of Christianity. The problem is that mainstream Christianity, not the Bible, erroneously teaches that hell burns forever and that gives the impression that we are serving a tyrant. That simply is not so – that teaching is alien to the scriptures. However, that study is outside the scope of this study even though they are related. Let me just say for now that hell is not eternal, the meaning of “for ever” in the Bible does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity – it merely means “until it is done”. But like I said, that is another study. I encourage you to study that for yourself or look at my other study in this forum called Is For Ever ceaseless?.

What about ghosts and those who channel spirits?Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Basically, it is Satan’s total intent that he deceive the entire world and he will use great signs and wonders (along with his more subtle tactics) in order to accomplish this goal. For you see, deception causes people to distrust the Word of God; it makes people doubt. And doubt is all Satan needs to pull people away from God. Sometimes the line between truth and error is so thin that unless you know what the Bible actually says you can become lost and believe a lie. Study it earnestly!
(end part 4)

 

[PaleHorse]

Final note: In order to find the Biblical truth of any topic; whether it be state of the dead, prophecy, hell and hell-fire, the old or new covenant, etc; the way you do it is to get together ALL of the verses of the Bible that talk about the topic and compare them. Look at the topic from all sides and gather all the verses that aptly pertain. Also note the sequence of events - that is vital! Getting just one or two verses will almost always paint an incomplete picture – so don’t stand on just 1 or 2 verses. Get all the verses together and then you’ll know you have Biblical truth! Then there will only remain one question; are you going to follow the Bible or the traditions of men or a church? Think about that when you read:
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Mark 7:9 - And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 15:6 - And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ephesians 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

*Here are the verses where the Bible likens death to sleep in the Bible. Twenty three are listed here but I have been told there are many more:

1. Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
2. 2 Samuel 7:12 - And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
3. 1 Kings 1:21 - Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
4. Job 7:21 - And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
5. Job 14:12 - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
6. Psalms 13:3 - Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
7. Psalms 76:6 - At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.
8. Jeremiah 51:39 - In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.
9. Jeremiah 51:57 - And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
10. Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
11. Matthew 9:24 - He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
12. Mark 5:39 - And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
13. Luke 8:52 - And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
14. John 11:11 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
15. John 11:13 - Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
16. Acts 7:60 - And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
17. Acts 13:36 - For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
18. 1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
19. Ephesians 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
20. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
21. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
22. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
23. 2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Even Tyndale, one of the great reformers of Protestantism, understood this concept well as did the early protestant churches:
WIlliam Tyndale: And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be. And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

(end of essay)

 

[PaleHorse]

Oh yeah, the above study is one that I compiled with the help of my wife. It is not copied from any book or website.

 

[Justme]

Hi Palehorse,

Actually I see tons of conclusions here I don't agree with and was wondering if you would like to go to Unorthodox Theology to discuss this?

Justme

 

[PaleHorse]

Sure, I'd be happy to. Is there a thread already started? If so, could you provide a link please.

 

[Justme]

Hi Palehorse,

No thread started, I'll go and get it going. I'll call it "the state of the dead"

See you later,

Justme [BIBLE][/BIBLE]

 

[PaleHorse]

I would like to make a small correction to my above essay; at the end of my essay I mentioned that there were 23 Bible verses that liken death to sleep. I was wrong. Apparently there are 66, but I've only found 63 of them so far. I'll find the remaining 3 later, in the mean time here are the 63 verses that I know of:
Deuteronomy 31:16
2 Samuel 7:12
1 Kings 1:21; 2:10; 11:21; 14:20; 14:31; 15:8; 15:24; 16:6; 16:28; 22:40; 22:50
2 Kings 8:24; 10:35; 13:9; 13:13; 14:16, 14:22; 14:29; 15:7; 15:22, 15:38; 16:20; 20:21; 21:18; 24:6
2 Chronicles 9:31; 12:16; 14:1; 16:13; 21:1; 26:2; 26:23; 27:9; 28:27; 32:33; 33:20
Job 3:13; 7:21; 14:12
Psalm 13:3; 76:5; 76:6; 90:5
Jeremiah 51:39; 51:57
Daniel 12:2
Matthew 9:24; 27:52
Mark 5:39
Luke 8:52
John 11:11
Acts 7:60; 13:36
1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6; 15:18; 15:20
1 Thessalonians 4:13; 4:14; 4:15
2 Peter 3:4

 

[TrustAndObey]

PaleHorse, this is a very good (and thorough) essay! It's so nice to see some common sense applied to this subject.

I especially enjoyed the part about what a soul really is, and I'd like to include a couple more examples of what the Bible says if you don't mind.

The Bible says a soul can be bought, can work, can touch objects, can lie, can eat literal food, can bleed, can lust, that the GRAVE is for souls, that a soul can dry away because of lack of food. A soul can humble itself with fasting, be persecuted, can be torn apart, AND a soul can DIE. (I can give scriptural references for all of those if needed).


I hear so many people say "soul sleep" is not biblical. I beg to differ (respectfully). Our souls sleep every night.


When talking about the second coming of Christ, Paul said the following:

1 Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed


Now wait, I don't know of a single person that hasn't slept at some point in their life. What is the verse really saying then?

Paul talks repeatedly about how we will be "changed" when Christ returns. The righteous that are dead when Christ returns will be resurrected to receive glorified bodies (Paul refers to that as being "changed") and those that are still alive will be caught up with Him to receive glorified bodies (without ever dying).


So in a nutshell, that verse means "not all the righteous will be dead by the time Christ returns, but all of us will receive our glorified bodies and put on immortality at that time". Which totally makes sense considering there will be living righteous people when Christ returns, as well as those that have died in the past.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ shall rise first. A very plain teaching in the bible is that Christ gives the righteous life---so how can one be "dead" in Christ? It's easy and it's what the bible teaches....the righteous that die are sleeping an unconscious sleep. They won't sleep forever, they will be with Christ someday to receive eternal reward....but all the confusion seems to be about when this happens, you're absolutely right. We're to comfort each other with the fact that all will be awakened some day!

The bible also refers to those that "sleep in Christ" and about kings dying and being buried to "sleep with their fathers". I am sure those verses are very difficult to explain from anyone that believes we go immediately to heaven or hell upon death.

And, I'd like to applaud you for some very good research done on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man! Especially where you pointed out that the two men had physical attributes (fingers, eyes, etc), because I cannot tell you how many times I've been told "when we're resurrected our souls reunite with our bodies". Then why did those men already have bodies? And why would they need to be resurrected later if they already had their glorified bodies? And what is Judgment Day for if we already receive our reward/punishment before Christ returns?

All common sense questions. I believe the parable is about our choices in life, not about what literally happens to us when we die.

I'd also like to note this passage:

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus promised to return to receive the righteous into heaven. We are only promised a second coming....not millions and billions of them for Him to receive every single righteous person that has died.

Good job PaleHorse!

 

[PaleHorse]

For those who are curious and want to read the discussion between JustMe and myself on this topic the thread can be located here.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I found some more really great verses that confirm that we must have the breath of life (spirit) in order to be a living soul.

By the way, you may have mentioned this in your detailed study, but the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) is also translated to say "dead body" several times in the bible!

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Overwhelming proof that a body without the spirit is dead. We must have the spirit to be a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[PaleHorse]

TrustAndObey,

That verse you posted (Eze 37:1-10) is nothing short of awesome for it shows exactly the point, and the truth, of what the scriptures teach.
Thank you for finding that verse - I should include it in my essay.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Thank you for finding that verse - I should include it in my essay.

Feel free!!!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Is anybody else following the debate on the other thread?

 

[Starr SDA Living Word]

God Bless and Happy Sabbath.

 

[reddogs]

Is there a place for excellent threads as this one should be easier to access, we should have a section set aside on the top center right beside Traditional Seventh-day Adventists called 'Understandings on Docrines', or 'Doctrinal Views' or something close to that for threads like this.