Our thoughts or God's thoughts?

[goober3]

I was reading on another forum, a poster stated that God controls our thoughts. I wanted to know your thoughts on this subject.

Does God control all of our thoughts?

Do our thoughts originate with us or God?

God of course knows our thoughts and uses them to his glory!

Our thoughts originate only with us and we are responsible, they are independent even though God knows them from the beginning!

Our life is a script. We only live out our written dialogue

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[jonas3]

I was reading on another forum, a poster stated that God controls our thoughts. I wanted to know your thoughts on this subject.

Does God control all of our thoughts?

Do our thoughts originate with us or God?

God of course knows our thoughts and uses them to his glory!

Our thoughts originate only with us and we are responsible, they are independent even though God knows them from the beginning!

Our life is a script. We only live out our written dialogue

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

God controls every single thought of every single person at every single second of every single day since the foundation of the world. The creation is NOT independent of the Creator...ever. That would be the heresy known as free-will. Those who deny it, deny the sovereignty of God. If you think that your thoughts are not controlled by God, then the product of your thoughts cannot be controlled by God (i.e. your actions), and if your actions are not controlled by God, then YOU could do whatsoever YOU pleased independent of the Creator.

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." - Det 32:39

"For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses." - Jos 11:20

"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." - Ps 115:3

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." - Pro 21:1

"6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isa 45:6-7

"O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." - Jer 18:16

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn 19:11

-jonas

 

[goober3]

From a Calvinistic and Biblical perspective I know that of course God knows, controls and restrains our each and every thought. But does God in a more deterministic way, write our thoughts?

Example: Ice cream sounds good right about now.
God gave me a preference for Ice cream, He knew that on this date at this exact moment that the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream would appeal greatly to me and that I would sadly forget my determination to lose five lbs. this week. He allowed me my weakness.

Or

God placed the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream into my brain at this exact moment on this exact day at 11:51 a.m. OCT 31st for his purpose. The thought originated from him.

The second seems more fatalistic to me. That God writes every thought into our brains. Am I way off base?

 

[jonas3]

From a Calvinistic and Biblical perspective I know that of course God knows, controls and restrains our each and every thought. But does God in a more deterministic way, write our thoughts?

Example: Ice cream sounds good right about now.
God gave me a preference for Ice cream, He knew that on this date at this exact moment that the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream would appeal greatly to me and that I would sadly forget my determination to lose five lbs. this week. He allowed me my weakness.

Or

God placed the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream into my brain at this exact moment on this exact day at 11:51 a.m. OCT 31st for his purpose. The thought originated from him.

The second seems more fatalistic to me. That God writes every thought into our brains. Am I way off base?

God does not merely allow events to happen, but rather He CAUSES all events to come to pass; therefore, I would go with your second scenario. Not only did God know that at that exact moment you would have the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream, but He specifically gave you the thought. Most people will say that God controls the big events, but not the small ones. This is just another attempt by man to exalt himself above the sovereign controller of the universe. God either causes everything, or He causes nothing.

For example, God placed the thought in the apostle Peter’s mind to deny that he knew Jesus the three times that it occurred on that particular date in history for His purpose (Mat 26:69-75). God not only knew beforehand that Peter would do it (Mat 26:34), but He caused Peter to fulfill His will, then He caused the rooster to crow. God does not let His creation function outside of His control…ever.

-jonas

 

[goober3]

So are you saying that God puts every thought into our brain?

Every sinful thought or idiotic thought that flits through my brain at any given moment is placed there by God?

Thousands of thoughts on a daily basis do not originate in my brain but are placed or written into my brain by God?

Example: That guy is really stupid.
I can't stand so and so.
He or she is very attractive.
I don't feel like reading my bible today.

My thoughts and your thoughts are written into our brain before creation, like a script, for us and we do as we are programmed? I use that word advisedly.

Am I understanding your point correctly?

Would you please identify scripture that states this.

Are you saying that I am not an individual creature that the potter created and knows, controls and restrains, But that God puts every thought into my head at every moment of every second of every day. That I am not really thinking the thought, but it is something that God wrote for me to think at any particular moment? Is this the majority of Calvinist belief?

 

[goober3]

God creates his creatures any way that he deems fit.

I have NO problem with this. None whatsoever.

But please provide some scriptural support that God PLACES our every single thought into our head.

 

[CCWoody]

From a Calvinistic and Biblical perspective I know that of course God knows, controls and restrains our each and every thought. But does God in a more deterministic way, write our thoughts?

Example: Ice cream sounds good right about now.
God gave me a preference for Ice cream, He knew that on this date at this exact moment that the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream would appeal greatly to me and that I would sadly forget my determination to lose five lbs. this week. He allowed me my weakness.

Or

God placed the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream into my brain at this exact moment on this exact day at 11:51 a.m. OCT 31st for his purpose. The thought originated from him.

The second seems more fatalistic to me. That God writes every thought into our brains. Am I way off base?

For some strange reason I had the thought of a scene from Starship Troopers and a grub crawling on someone's thigh. Don't ask me why!

I would tend to think that, if I understand your usage, I would deny the second proposition.

 

[Jon_]

Not only did God know that at that exact moment you would have the thought of eating 2 scoops of Chocolate ice cream, but He specifically gave you the thought.

Would you say God gives us all thoughts? That is, God is the genesis, the source for all thoughts whatsoever.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I say that He does not fill our minds with our every thought. Those who are elect are made alive to Christ, but those who are not will act according to their own unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

 

[goober3]

Would you say God gives us all thoughts? That is, God is the genesis, the source for all thoughts whatsoever.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You asked that question so much better then I did.

 

[goober3]

For some strange reason I had the thought of a scene from Starship Troopers and a grub crawling on someone's thigh. Don't ask me why!

I would tend to think that, if I understand your usage, I would deny the second proposition.

It's been a long time since I have seen Starship Troopers. I don't remember the grub or the movie for that matter.

As to usage, I am a little hard to follow at times. Well, most of the time.

Could you expound on why you deny the second proposition?

Thanks

 

[frumanchu]

I was reading on another forum, a poster stated that God controls our thoughts. I wanted to know your thoughts on this subject.

Does God control all of our thoughts?

Do our thoughts originate with us or God?

God of course knows our thoughts and uses them to his glory!

Our thoughts originate only with us and we are responsible, they are independent even though God knows them from the beginning!

Our life is a script. We only live out our written dialogue

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Our thoughts are our own, yet they are under God's sovereign control. God does not place wholly formed thoughts within our minds but rather "manipulates" (for lack of a better term at the moment) our thoughts.

In the case of your scenarios I believe it is the first and not the second, and I wholly disagree with jonas that God placed the thought to deny Christ within Peter's mind. Such would make Him the author of Peter's sin. Peter was a sinner with a sin nature like the rest of us. God merely provided the cirumstance and withheld the grace that would have prevented Peter from doing so. Peter's denial originated in His own heart, yet it was completely under God's sovereign control.

An excellent example to ponder is that of Scripture. Scripture is God-breathed, yet the words of Scripture are genuinely those of the author. God did not dictate Scripture to men, leaving them to be mere secretaries or transcriptionists. Rather He inspired them to write the very infallible Word of God without error.

 

[CCWoody]

Could you expound on why you deny the second proposition?

Thanks

Pro 16:9 GB
(9) The heart of man purposeth his way: but the Lord doeth direct his steppes.

While I believe that God causes all of my brain activity from the sense that he designed the way I should operate and wills my brain to fire from the standpoint that he is permissively willing to let me purpose my own way I do not think that my brain is nothing more than a series of directed firings that make me think this or that. I really do believe that I have a certain freedom within the bounds set by God to think for myself. I believe that a part of what it means to be created in the image of God is to have the capacity for rational thought.

What you describe as a second proposition seems to me to be nothing more than turning man into puppets on a string.

 

[goober3]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your input. I agree.

 

[jonas3]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your input. I agree.

You agree with what? Free-will as they are propounding.

-jonas

 

[hlaltimus]

For what it is worth, No...God does not control our thoughts, not directly that is. You could say that in the indirect sense though He does. How? By controlling the hearts of men and women! He who possesses the heart of man may thereby determine the natural course of the mind. So you see, God does not have to directly control the mind of a person in order to ultimately determine what will transpire in that person's mind. This is an important distinction to make as the Holy Spirit of God does not violate the free agency of man while unclean spirits do. If any so called 'spirit of god' seeks to arbitrarily and directly contol your mind, get rid of it...It isn't the Lord. This may be a bit confusing as a Calvinist is supposed to believe that God is in control of all creation, and He is, but He normally contols His creation through the means of various secondary agents. You are one of those agents and have the illusion of appearing to be a primary agent in controlling what you chose to think. All right, think something!---- "I choose to think how gracious God has been to me. I should have been killed several times and here I am!" Why did you think such a thought? Right...He has already given you a new heart to so appreciate His works of mercy in you and by that indirect means also shaped what you would think. Calvinist do believe in free will, but have placed certain biblical confines upon it as only God has unlimited free will. That is why you have a direct free agency over your mind...You are exercising your will just as the Creator intended you to. He will not usurp that direct control over your mind and you should be leery of any spirit that does.

 

[Jon_]

For what it is worth, No...God does not control our thoughts, not directly that is. You could say that in the indirect sense though He does. How? By controlling the hearts of men and women! He who possesses the heart of man may thereby determine the natural course of the mind. So you see, God does not have to directly control the mind of a person in order to ultimately determine what will transpire in that person's mind. This is an important distinction to make as the Holy Spirit of God does not violate the free agency of man while unclean spirits do. If any so called 'spirit of god' seeks to arbitrarily and directly contol your mind, get rid of it...It isn't the Lord. This may be a bit confusing as a Calvinist is supposed to believe that God is in control of all creation, and He is, but He normally contols His creation through the means of various secondary agents. You are one of those agents and have the illusion of appearing to be a primary agent in controlling what you chose to think. All right, think something!---- "I choose to think how gracious God has been to me. I should have been killed several times and here I am!" Why did you think such a thought? Right...He has already given you a new heart to so appreciate His works of mercy in you and by that indirect means also shaped what you would think. Calvinist do believe in free will, but have placed certain biblical confines upon it as only God has unlimited free will. That is why you have a direct free agency over your mind...You are exercising your will just as the Creator intended you to. He will not usurp that direct control over your mind and you should be leery of any spirit that does.

But there is no difference between the heart and the mind. The two are effectively interchangeable.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[goober3]

For some strange reason I had the thought of a scene from Starship Troopers and a grub crawling on someone's thigh. Don't ask me why!

I would tend to think that, if I understand your usage, I would deny the second proposition.

What exactly is Starship Troopers? A movie or a story? I don't remember seeing it or reading it. Why was a grub crawling on someone's thigh. I think I am thinking of some movie that I saw once.