Our churches today are far removed from the early church!

[Dave L]

Well it is how you define victorious, we need to know. If you mean an assembly that is sinlessly perfect- one does not exist! If you mean that despite the assembly being filled with sinners saved by grace and turned into saints and are gorwing into the image of Christ- there are many many like that! The church I am a member of is one such church. Perfect in everything? No! But loving God, striving to glorify Him, praying, preaching, loving, and reaching out? Absolutely!

You assume too much. I'm only quoting scripture about what a normal Christian is like. If a church lack these, we should find one that doesn't.

 

[JLB777]

I agree with that !

See in the world there are lost sheep and lost goats! Jesus knows which are the sheep and he goes finds them! They were not saved then lost! They had never been saved and now the shepherd is going to bring them into the fold!

Please point out the reference to goats in this teaching from Christ.

Jesus is only referring to “His sheep”.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB

 

[JLB777]

If by this you mean s aved born again, redeemed, perfected, life hid in Christ, justified and glorified individual can lost their salvation, and then somehow get it back again you need scripture to show this. Parables are not the foundation for doctrine.'

Show me passages where one can be born again, and again, and again ,and again!

All 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.

They are the shepherds sheep.

They belong to him.

They are justified.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The sheep who became lost was one of the “just person” among the 100 sheep that belong to the shepherd.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


His sheep who became lost, is now referred to as a “sinner”.


Should I define what a “sinner” is for you from the Bible.


Obviously from the text you can see that a sinner is not counted as “just”.



JLB

 

[nolidad]

All 100 sheep belong to the shepherd.

They are the shepherds sheep.

They belong to him.

They are justified.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The sheep who became lost was one of the “just person” among the 100 sheep that belong to the shepherd.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


His sheep who became lost, is now referred to as a “sinner”.


Should I define what a “sinner” is for you from the Bible.


Obviously from the text you can see that a sinner is not counted as “just”.



JLB

So yu believe people can be born again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Scripture?

 

[nolidad]

Please point out the reference to goats in this teaching from Christ.

Jesus is only referring to “His sheep”.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB

It is not in this passage, but in another parable!

So Jesus lied when He said these words then.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

YOu think someone can pluck us out of Jesus hands (I guess ourselves)

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You think you can pluck yourself out of Gods hands. so you are not human then?

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

But yet you believe you can be cast out!

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

So you believe the opposite- He will leave or forsake you!

 

[nolidad]

You assume too much. I'm only quoting scripture about what a normal Christian is like. If a church lack these, we should find one that doesn't.

I assumed nothing. I simpl;y asked what you mean by victorious and posed a possibility based on your previous posts. Do you believe a church needs to be sinless?

 

[Dave L]

I assumed nothing. I simpl;y asked what you mean by victorious and posed a possibility based on your previous posts. Do you believe a church needs to be sinless?

John says IF we sin we have an advocate, not WHEN we sin.

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” 1 John 2:1 (NASB95)

 

[JLB777]

So yu believe people can be born again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Scripture?

That’s not what I believe.

I believe a child of God can become lost, because the wander away from the truth. They wander away from Christ and His teaching.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth,

• and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way

• will save a soul from death

JLB

 

[JLB777]

It is not in this passage, but in another parable!

Exactly.

Jesus taught us many things and used many parables to teach us.

 

[JLB777]

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

YOu think someone can pluck us out of Jesus hands (I guess ourselves)

I wouldn’t call Jesus a liar if I were you.



Maybe if you actually started the passage at it’s context point and not in the middle you might learn some truth.


Verse 28 begins with a conjunction.

The word “and” is a conjunction, and ties together what is about to be said with what was previously said.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The result of hearing and following Christ is being given eternal life.


If we hear and follow for a while, then stop hearing and following Him, we run the risk of wandering away from Him and becoming lost.


Those who obey His voice will not be snatched out of His hand.





JLB

 

[nolidad]

John says IF we sin we have an advocate, not WHEN we sin.

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” 1 John 2:1 (NASB95)

Well Dave:

If here is a conditional which means there is the possibility one can sin! And IF one sins they have a defender-Jesus Christ.

So do you believe churches need to be sinlessly perfect?> Yes or no will do fine.

 

[Dave L]

Well Dave:

If here is a conditional which means there is the possibility one can sin! And IF one sins they have a defender-Jesus Christ.

So do you believe churches need to be sinlessly perfect?> Yes or no will do fine.

No, I'm only saying if you make sin a lifestyle you are not in line with Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Well Dave:

If here is a conditional which means there is the possibility one can sin! And IF one sins they have a defender-Jesus Christ.

So do you believe churches need to be sinlessly perfect?> Yes or no will do fine.

Do you tolerate sin in your life?

 

[nolidad]

Do you tolerate sin in your life?

When you answer me, I will answer you.l;

 

[nolidad]

No, I'm only saying if you make sin a lifestyle you are not in line with Scripture.

That was a given at the beginning.

 

[nolidad]

I wouldn’t call Jesus a liar if I were you.



Maybe if you actually started the passage at it’s context point and not in the middle you might learn some truth.


Verse 28 begins with a conjunction.

The word “and” is a conjunction, and ties together what is about to be said with what was previously said.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


The result of hearing and following Christ is being given eternal life.


If we hear and follow for a while, then stop hearing and following Him, we run the risk of wandering away from Him and becoming lost.


Those who obey His voice will not be snatched out of His hand.

JLB

It is not I who think Jesus lied.

Seems you forgot the prior two conjunctions! Following Jesus does not mean sinless perfection. You are not even that way.

Your problem is you have a salvation by works and that is counter to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Good works are the result of being saved not as a need to stay saved!

The Bible has a response to people who follow and leave. Why do you feel compelled to make up something that is not there????

It appears you do not even know what happens in a persons life when they become saved!

And you forget there is only one work Jesus said is needed.

John 6:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I can send you to the dozens of other verses about being saved JUST by believing (and no believing does not mean doing a bunch of works), but I don't think you can receive them.

I stand amazed ! I preach holiness and obeying god like crazy- but here I have to defend the gospel against the modern Judiazers

 

[nolidad]

Exactly.

Jesus taught us many things and used many parables to teach us.

But you do realize parables are not the basis for doctrine I hope? Parables were used to hide the truth from th eJewish nation and then Jesus provately explained them to the disciples.

 

[nolidad]

That’s not what I believe.

I believe a child of God can become lost, because the wander away from the truth. They wander away from Christ and His teaching.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth,

• and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way

• will save a soul from death

JLB

So lost means they are no longer saved?

And if it means they are no longer born again- can they be born again--again?

 

[JLB777]

Seems you forgot the prior two conjunctions! Following Jesus does not mean sinless perfection.

Following Jesus and what He taught is about loving God and loving our brother.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[JLB777]

But you do realize parables are not the basis for doctrine I hope? Parables were used to hide the truth from th eJewish nation and then Jesus provately explained them to the disciples.

Jesus taught through parables.

His doctrine is what we are to follow.

Doctrine means teaching.



JLB