Our churches today are far removed from the early church!

BCsenior said:

So are today's churches far removed from the early churches, or not?

Click to expand...

NO.

They are a different part of the Body of Christ than the earlier churches I suppose. But then a hand is not "far removed" from a foot - so long as it's part of the same body is it?

Now if you are insinuating that some particular current churches or certain people who don't live up to a particular standard are not really part of the Body of Christ you need to say so outright and not beat around the bush.

After all most of your threads are started in order to supposedly show that some born again believers have lost their salvation.

Many of us are not ignorant of your many backhanded ways of preaching a false works oriented gospel and I suspect that this thread is more of the , just from a slightly different starting point than many others.

P.S.

I just saw this post of yours right after I said the above and my post printed out.

What a surprise?

BCsenior said:

Yes, these verses refer to when new believers are initially saved.
However, all BACs need to co-operate with the Holy Spirit during their
sanctification process unto holiness in order to maintain their salvation.
THIS is where one's free will comes into play ...
Does the BAC choose to habitually sin unto eternal death,
OR ... does the BAC choose to be faithful unto righteousness, etc.
WHO loves Jesus enough to obey His commandments and stay saved?

Click to expand...

BCsenior said:

"The Shepherd of Hermas" (updated to modern language by Daniel Robison)

From the back cover
“The Shepherd of Hermas was one of the most popular books, if not the most popular book,
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries. Believed by the early Christians to have been the work of the Hermas referred to by the apostle Paul (in Romans 16:14), this book was regarded as inspired Scripture by many(1) and was even included in several of the early canons(2). At the very least, the historical and universal acclaim of this work by those who were still burning with the recent fire of Pentecost demands a serious consideration of the message it gives to us; a message that, after nearly 2000 years, still exhales the prophetic fragrance of the ancient, apostolic faith.”
(1) Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen
(2) the revered Codex Sinaiticus (one of the best Greek texts of the NT) includes “The Shepherd”

From pages 2 through 6

● “… the thoughts of a righteous man should be righteous. By thinking righteously his character is established in the heavens, and he find the Lord merciful to him in everything. But those who entertain wicked thoughts in their minds bring death and captivity on themselves, especially those who set their affections on this world and glory in their riches, and don’t look forward to the blessings of the life to come. Their regrets will be many, because they have lost all hope for themselves and their life.”

● “So do not stop reprimanding your sons, for I know that if they will repent
with all their heart, they will be enrolled in the Books of Life with the saints.”

● “… all things become plain to His elect so that He may bestow on them the blessings which he has promised them with much glory and joy, IF only they shall keep the commandments of God which they have received in great faith.”

● “… forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, IF they repent with all their heart and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits. The days of repentance are filled up to all the saints, but to the unbeliever repentance will be possible even to the last day. So tell those who preside over the Church to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive the promises in full and with great glory. Stand steadfast, you who work righteousness, and do not doubt, so that your journey may be with the holy angels.”

● “Yet you are saved because you did not depart from the living God, and because of your simplicity and great self-control. These have saved you, IF you remain steadfast, and they will save all who act in the same manner, walking in innocence and simplicity. Those who possess such virtues will grow strong against every form of wickedness and will remain unto eternal life. Blessed are all those who practice righteousness, for they will never be destroyed.”

Did you notice the 3 “IF” conditions? (The NT epistles have many “IF” conditions as well.)
Did you notice the 2 exhortations to “work righteousness” and “practice righteousness”?

Please note
Now, I have 3 confirming sources that strongly warn against
the popular false doctrines of today’s lukewarm Laodicean church
... OSAS, free-grace, grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
● The New Testament
● God’s prophets and watchmen (of today)
● The Shepherd of Hermas

Note
A prophetess who really hears from Father God, Lois Vogel-Sharp,
says the Laodicean church of Revelation 3:14-22 were/are NOT saved.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.


I will look for a copy.

Any instructions about “false copies”



Thanks JLB

BCsenior said:

“… forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, IF they repent with all their heart and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits.

Click to expand...

Utterly sobering and much needed.


The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27




JLB

BCsenior said:

● “Yet you are saved because you did not depart from the living God, and because of your simplicity and great self-control. These have saved you, IF you remain steadfast, and they will save all who act in the same manner, walking in innocence and simplicity. Those who possess such virtues will grow strong against every form of wickedness and will remain unto eternal life. Blessed are all those who practice righteousness, for they will never be destroyed.”

Did you notice the 3 “IF” conditions? (The NT epistles have many “IF” conditions as well.)
Did you notice the 2 exhortations to “work righteousness” and “practice righteousness”?

Click to expand...

Excellent reading.

We need more of these kinds of things being taught in the Churches.



JLB

BCsenior said:

"The Shepherd of Hermas" (updated to modern language by Daniel Robison)

From the back cover
“The Shepherd of Hermas was one of the most popular books, if not the most popular book,
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries. Believed by the early Christians to have been the work of the Hermas referred to by the apostle Paul (in Romans 16:14), this book was regarded as inspired Scripture by many(1) and was even included in several of the early canons(2). At the very least, the historical and universal acclaim of this work by those who were still burning with the recent fire of Pentecost demands a serious consideration of the message it gives to us; a message that, after nearly 2000 years, still exhales the prophetic fragrance of the ancient, apostolic faith.”
(1) Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen
(2) the revered Codex Sinaiticus (one of the best Greek texts of the NT) includes “The Shepherd”

From pages 2 through 6

● “… the thoughts of a righteous man should be righteous. By thinking righteously his character is established in the heavens, and he find the Lord merciful to him in everything. But those who entertain wicked thoughts in their minds bring death and captivity on themselves, especially those who set their affections on this world and glory in their riches, and don’t look forward to the blessings of the life to come. Their regrets will be many, because they have lost all hope for themselves and their life.”

● “So do not stop reprimanding your sons, for I know that if they will repent
with all their heart, they will be enrolled in the Books of Life with the saints.”

● “… all things become plain to His elect so that He may bestow on them the blessings which he has promised them with much glory and joy, IF only they shall keep the commandments of God which they have received in great faith.”

● “… forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, IF they repent with all their heart and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits. The days of repentance are filled up to all the saints, but to the unbeliever repentance will be possible even to the last day. So tell those who preside over the Church to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive the promises in full and with great glory. Stand steadfast, you who work righteousness, and do not doubt, so that your journey may be with the holy angels.”

● “Yet you are saved because you did not depart from the living God, and because of your simplicity and great self-control. These have saved you, IF you remain steadfast, and they will save all who act in the same manner, walking in innocence and simplicity. Those who possess such virtues will grow strong against every form of wickedness and will remain unto eternal life. Blessed are all those who practice righteousness, for they will never be destroyed.”

Did you notice the 3 “IF” conditions? (The NT epistles have many “IF” conditions as well.)
Did you notice the 2 exhortations to “work righteousness” and “practice righteousness”?

Please note
Now, I have 3 confirming sources that strongly warn against
the popular false doctrines of today’s lukewarm Laodicean church
... OSAS, free-grace, grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
● The New Testament
● God’s prophets and watchmen (of today)
● The Shepherd of Hermas

Note
A prophetess who really hears from Father God, Lois Vogel-Sharp,
says the Laodicean church of Revelation 3:14-22 were/are NOT saved.

Click to expand...

Can you reprint this at CF.NET ?




JLB

nolidad said:

Well I don't know how that works, but given the sordid imagination of mankind- I would not be surprised that there are folks out there like that! Sounds more like anarchy to me.

Click to expand...

Here is a small example that I've seen first hand. I know of a pastor that has said to me directly that they proudly avoid the legalistic dress code of many churches in our area. What's wrong with that you ask? He, and his staff wear ripped jeans, flip flops, flannel just as legalistically as churches where they wear suits and ties. I've even heard them make fun of those churches. How is that not the same thing, just in the opposite direction?

Again this is a minor example, but is is out there.

BCsenior said:

Yes, these verses refer to when new believers are initially saved.

However, all BACs need to co-operate with the Holy Spirit during their
sanctification process unto holiness in order to maintain their salvation.

THIS is where one's free will comes into play ...
Does the BAC choose to habitually sin unto eternal death,
OR ... does the BAC choose to be faithful unto righteousness, etc.

WHO loves Jesus enough to obey His commandments and stay saved?

Click to expand...

Don't worry I have learnt the lesson the hard way. I was an OSAS believer for a long time until God chastised me in the most painful way and made me realized that sin equals suffering and now I am fully aware of the dangers and the evil things of the evil OSAS doctrine. Praise to the Lord for giving me the second chance.

His student said:

NO.

They are a different part of the Body of Christ than the earlier churches I suppose. But then a hand is not "far removed" from a foot - so long as it's part of the same body is it?

Now if you are insinuating that some particular current churches or certain people who don't live up to a particular standard are not really part of the Body of Christ you need to say so outright and not beat around the bush.

After all most of your threads are started in order to supposedly show that some born again believers have lost their salvation.

Many of us are not ignorant of your many backhanded ways of preaching a false works oriented gospel and I suspect that this thread is more of the , just from a slightly different starting point than many others.

P.S.

I just saw this post of yours right after I said the above and my post printed out.

What a surprise?

Click to expand...

Why not just answer some of his questions using scripture, rather than just state your opinion ?


Do you believe a Christian can become lost?


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’




JLB

JLB777 said:

Do you believe a Christian can become lost?

Click to expand...

If you mean lose his salvation - NO.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

Now - if you were to ask if an individual or group of individuals who call themselves Christians can be found to have never been known by the Lord come judgment day and they try to justify themselves before Him by the good Christian works they have done - without doubt.

"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" Matthew 7:22-23

JLB777 said:

Why not just answer some of his questions using scripture, rather than just state your opinion ?

Click to expand...

OK.

From the Shepard of Hermes: "For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits. The days of repentance are filled up to all the saints, but to the unbeliever repentance will be possible even to the last day."

From the scripture: "and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:4

The Lord will do no less than He requires of us.

Just like you guys - The Shepherd of Hermas was full of beans. He misunderstood the source of our salvation and that it is God Who is at work in believers from start to finish.

His student said:

If you mean lose his salvation - NO.

Click to expand...

Can you explain the difference between losing one’s salvation and becoming lost?

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:6-7


Doesn’t someone who is lost need salvation?




JLB

His student said:

From the scripture: "and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:4

The Lord will do no less than He requires of us.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Lord will forgive those who repent.

He rejoices when one of His sheep who has wandered away and becomes lost, repents and returns to Him.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

JLB

topher694 said:

Here is a small example that I've seen first hand. I know of a pastor that has said to me directly that they proudly avoid the legalistic dress code of many churches in our area. What's wrong with that you ask? He, and his staff wear ripped jeans, flip flops, flannel just as legalistically as churches where they wear suits and ties. I've even heard them make fun of those churches. How is that not the same thing, just in the opposite direction?

Again this is a minor example, but is is out there.

Click to expand...

Legalism makes laws to bind other people. These guys are just foolish and arrogant in their liberty in Christ! I have no problem with a very relaxed dress code- and even dressing like that once to prove a point, but we should follow cultural norms, you know when in Rome do like the romans!

Dave L said:

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

Click to expand...

If you are implying members of the Body never sin- you are seriously wrong!

JLB777 said:

Can you explain the difference between losing one’s salvation and becoming lost?

Click to expand...

In the case of these parables it's easy to see. You simply have to read the chapter from beginning to end.

Luke 15 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
"Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” So he told them this parable (these parables): “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? .... I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."................
The Parable of the Lost Coin
“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? ....I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."..........................
The Parable of the Prodigal Son
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons........ It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.....I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

All 3 of the parables in this chapter are concerned with the lost of this world - such as the tax collectors and sinners the Lord was seeking and associating Himself with. I.e. the ones who are "lost" were not saved yet.

You folks just seem to take any old scripture and apply it to the lack of security for believers even out of context - since that's your agenda.

I can't and won't judge anyone here in the forum concerning their salvation.

But it does seem to me that there are certain ones who post in the forum mostly concerning doing works in order to keep their salvation or rate their salvation - who are prime candidates to fulfill what the Lord said about those who will point proudly to success in their Christian life as the reason they should be accepted by Him.

But He will have "never" known them. They will have never received and rested in His work on their behalf as their only hope of salvation.

P.S.
I know that these things seem counter intuitive to some of you. But clearly in this case the Lord has chosen foolish things to shame the proud.

nolidad said:

If you are implying members of the Body never sin- you are seriously wrong!

Click to expand...

Just believe scripture. Experience isn't always reliable.

JLB777 said:

Can you explain the difference between losing one’s salvation and becoming lost?

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:6-7


Doesn’t someone who is lost need salvation?

Click to expand...

Well you can't lose your salvation, so there is no explanation for that.

We don't become lost. We are lost by nature

Paul said in ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So we don't become lost! We become saved when we trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the payment for our sins! When that happens we are new Creatures, our life is hidden with Christ until He appears, He keeps our salvation in heaven for us, He gives us the Holy Spirit as a down payment.

Sin is no longer the issue! Trust in Christ is the issue. People who go to the Lake of fire do so not because they are sinners, but because they rejected the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt!

nolidad said:

Legalism makes laws to bind other people. These guys are just foolish and arrogant in their liberty in Christ! I have no problem with a very relaxed dress code- and even dressing like that once to prove a point, but we should follow cultural norms, you know when in Rome do like the romans!

Click to expand...

Such things do lead to binding people... plus, as I said this was a simple example to illustrate the point. To explain further would take more time that I have at the moment.