Our churches today are far removed from the early church!

[BCsenior]

"The Shepherd of Hermas" (updated to modern language by Daniel Robison)

From the back cover
“The Shepherd of Hermas was one of the most popular books, if not the most popular book,
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries. Believed by the early Christians to have been the work of the Hermas referred to by the apostle Paul (in Romans 16:14), this book was regarded as inspired Scripture by many(1) and was even included in several of the early canons(2). At the very least, the historical and universal acclaim of this work by those who were still burning with the recent fire of Pentecost demands a serious consideration of the message it gives to us; a message that, after nearly 2000 years, still exhales the prophetic fragrance of the ancient, apostolic faith.”
(1) Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen
(2) the revered Codex Sinaiticus (one of the best Greek texts of the NT) includes “The Shepherd”

From pages 2 through 6

● “… the thoughts of a righteous man should be righteous. By thinking righteously his character is established in the heavens, and he find the Lord merciful to him in everything. But those who entertain wicked thoughts in their minds bring death and captivity on themselves, especially those who set their affections on this world and glory in their riches, and don’t look forward to the blessings of the life to come. Their regrets will be many, because they have lost all hope for themselves and their life.”

● “So do not stop reprimanding your sons, for I know that if they will repent
with all their heart, they will be enrolled in the Books of Life with the saints.”

● “… all things become plain to His elect so that He may bestow on them the blessings which he has promised them with much glory and joy, IF only they shall keep the commandments of God which they have received in great faith.”

● “… forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, IF they repent with all their heart and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits. The days of repentance are filled up to all the saints, but to the unbeliever repentance will be possible even to the last day. So tell those who preside over the Church to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive the promises in full and with great glory. Stand steadfast, you who work righteousness, and do not doubt, so that your journey may be with the holy angels.”

● “Yet you are saved because you did not depart from the living God, and because of your simplicity and great self-control. These have saved you, IF you remain steadfast, and they will save all who act in the same manner, walking in innocence and simplicity. Those who possess such virtues will grow strong against every form of wickedness and will remain unto eternal life. Blessed are all those who practice righteousness, for they will never be destroyed.”

Did you notice the 3 “IF” conditions? (The NT epistles have many “IF” conditions as well.)
Did you notice the 2 exhortations to “work righteousness” and “practice righteousness”?

Please note
Now, I have 3 confirming sources that strongly warn against
the popular false doctrines of today’s lukewarm Laodicean church
... OSAS, free-grace, grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
● The New Testament
● God’s prophets and watchmen (of today)
● The Shepherd of Hermas

Note
A prophetess who really hears from Father God, Lois Vogel-Sharp,
says the Laodicean church of Revelation 3:14-22 were/are NOT saved.

 

[redleghunter]

I would recommend reading it all. It just might lead you to the same conclusion that the early fathers came to. It was not the Hermes of the first century and not considered inspired Scriptures.

Three ancient witnesses, one of whom claims to be contemporary, declare that Hermas was the brother of Pope Pius I, whose pontificate was not earlier than 140–155 AD, which corresponds to the date range offered by J. B. Lightfoot(Lightfoot 1891). These authorities may be citing the same source, perhaps Hegesippus,[11] whose lost history of the early Church provided material for Eusebius of Caesarea. The witnesses are the following:

• The Muratorian fragment is a list written c. 170 AD (although some scholars now question this date and prefer to assign the fragment to the 4th century.[12]) that may be the earliest known canon of New Testament writings. It identifies Hermas, the author of The Shepherd, as the brother of Pius I, bishop of Rome:

• The Liberian Catalogue of Popes, a record that was later used in the writing of the Liber Pontificalis, states in a portion under the heading of 235: "Under his [Pius'] episcopate, his brother Ermes wrote a book in which are contained the precepts which the angel delivered to him, coming to him in the guise of a Shepherd."
• A poem written against Marcion from the 3rd or 4th century, by a writer adopting the name and persona of Tertullian — and sometimes therefore referred to as "Pseudo-Tertullian" — states "Then, after him, Pius, whose brother according to the flesh was Hermas, the angelic shepherd, because he spoke the words given to him." Note that Pseudo-Tertullian quotes some details from this list which are absent from the Liberian Catalogue, which may mean that he is independent of it.

The Shepherd of Hermas - Wikipedia

Eusebius, a 4th-century Christian historian and theologian, identified the book in a category often translated “spurious,” listing it alongside books like the “Didache” and the “Epistle of Barnabas.” He explained that such books were generally considered orthodox and useful, but were not to be regarded as inspired or read in formal church gatherings. He not only distinguished these books from true Scripture but also from the “disputed” books that were considered scripture by some but were not yet accepted as scripture by all churches at that time (such as 2nd Peter and 3rd John). He places The Shepherd in a third category this is useful but definitely not scripture.4 He thus demonstrates that, while these books were popular among Christians, they were not considered Holy Scripture. This wasn't even a dispute where some considered it scripture and others didn't. There was simply no discussion of The Shepherd being part of the Canon.

Should the Shepherd of Hermas be considered scripture? | CARM.org

Just think of it. If we went by what was popular Christian literature 10 years ago and fast forward 1900 years, many studying our era would conclude the Left Behind Series was popular but not part of the canon.

 

[redleghunter]

A prophetess who really hears from Father God, Lois Vogel-Sharp,
says the Laodicean church of Revelation 3:14-22 were/are NOT saved.

Which prophecies has she predicted and has come to pass? When she utters a prophecy does she say “Thus says the Lord!” ?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's not in the Canon, so it doesn't matter if you're trying to correct people.

 

[BCsenior]

I would recommend reading it all.

So are today's churches far removed from the early churches, or not?

 

[BCsenior]

Which prophecies has she predicted and has come to pass?
When she utters a prophecy does she say “Thus says the Lord!” ?

I don't know about her past prophecies, and no "Thus saith the Lord."
We both have the Holy Spirit baptism.
We both are on the same page.
My spirit agrees with what she says.
She says nothing that disagrees with Scripture.
What the Father tells her ... she writes it down.
Then later she reads it to those who are interested.

 

[redleghunter]

So are today's churches far removed from the early churches, or not?

Not at all. In fact little changes happen other than technology.

They faced the same challenges we do, but the technology has geometrically progressed.

I was pointing out this is NT era Apocrypha. There was a lot of those type of self proclaimed “visions” going on in the 2nd century.

 

[Dave L]

So are today's churches far removed from the early churches, or not?

Those who think they have the gifts are the furthest removed. Acting like the early church is hypocrisy in and of itself.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't know about her past prophecies, and no "Thus saith the Lord."
We both have the Holy Spirit baptism.
We both are on the same page.
My spirit agrees with what she says.
She says nothing that disagrees with Scripture.

The thing is, you can find two other people who fall under all the criteria you've listed and have an entirely different opinion.

Since the requirements mean that she agrees with you.

So if two other people were in agreement, and have a different point of view, then this refutes your claim.

 

[BCsenior]

I highly recommend that y'all wake up
and realize that our churches today
are far removed from the early churches!
Far, far removed!

 

[redleghunter]

I highly recommend that y'all wake up
and realize that our churches today
are far removed from the early churches!
Far, far removed!

Some are. Start with your own.

 

[Dave L]

I highly recommend that y'all wake up
and realize that our churches today
are far removed from the early churches!
Far, far removed!

Not as removed as you claim. We have centuries of compiled learning the early Church did not have because of the limits of tongues and prophecy. And depending where you focus many churches are of the same constitution and structure.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I highly recommend that y'all wake up
and realize that our churches today
are far removed from the early churches!
Far, far removed!

They may very well be.

However, following after grumblers and fault finders tends to lead to a far worse place.

Instead:

"whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

 

[nolidad]

"The Shepherd of Hermas" (updated to modern language by Daniel Robison)

From the back cover
“The Shepherd of Hermas was one of the most popular books, if not the most popular book,
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries. Believed by the early Christians to have been the work of the Hermas referred to by the apostle Paul (in Romans 16:14), this book was regarded as inspired Scripture by many(1) and was even included in several of the early canons(2). At the very least, the historical and universal acclaim of this work by those who were still burning with the recent fire of Pentecost demands a serious consideration of the message it gives to us; a message that, after nearly 2000 years, still exhales the prophetic fragrance of the ancient, apostolic faith.”
(1) Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen
(2) the revered Codex Sinaiticus (one of the best Greek texts of the NT) includes “The Shepherd”

From pages 2 through 6

● “… the thoughts of a righteous man should be righteous. By thinking righteously his character is established in the heavens, and he find the Lord merciful to him in everything. But those who entertain wicked thoughts in their minds bring death and captivity on themselves, especially those who set their affections on this world and glory in their riches, and don’t look forward to the blessings of the life to come. Their regrets will be many, because they have lost all hope for themselves and their life.”

● “So do not stop reprimanding your sons, for I know that if they will repent
with all their heart, they will be enrolled in the Books of Life with the saints.”

● “… all things become plain to His elect so that He may bestow on them the blessings which he has promised them with much glory and joy, IF only they shall keep the commandments of God which they have received in great faith.”

● “… forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, IF they repent with all their heart and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, concerning His elect, that if any one of them sins after a certain fixed day they will not be saved, for the repentance of the righteous has limits. The days of repentance are filled up to all the saints, but to the unbeliever repentance will be possible even to the last day. So tell those who preside over the Church to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive the promises in full and with great glory. Stand steadfast, you who work righteousness, and do not doubt, so that your journey may be with the holy angels.”

● “Yet you are saved because you did not depart from the living God, and because of your simplicity and great self-control. These have saved you, IF you remain steadfast, and they will save all who act in the same manner, walking in innocence and simplicity. Those who possess such virtues will grow strong against every form of wickedness and will remain unto eternal life. Blessed are all those who practice righteousness, for they will never be destroyed.”

Did you notice the 3 “IF” conditions? (The NT epistles have many “IF” conditions as well.)
Did you notice the 2 exhortations to “work righteousness” and “practice righteousness”?

Please note
Now, I have 3 confirming sources that strongly warn against
the popular false doctrines of today’s lukewarm Laodicean church
... OSAS, free-grace, grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
● The New Testament
● God’s prophets and watchmen (of today)
● The Shepherd of Hermas

Note
A prophetess who really hears from Father God, Lois Vogel-Sharp,
says the Laodicean church of Revelation 3:14-22 were/are NOT saved.

Sorry but if all this means people are saved or kept saved by their deeds--it is blasphemous agains the blood of Jesus shed for our sin!

Rewards are conditioned by the level of our obedience but salvation is based on trust in the death , burial and resuurection of Jesus for all our sin ----PERIOD!

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The are ye is in the present idicative, and "saved" is the perfect passive participle.

So in English it would read thusly:

For by grace you have now and will keep on being saved saved! Not of yourselves or of works!!!!!

 

[Hazelelponi]

To the OP:

I don't see how they are so far removed, or even any different really. We dress differently, have technology etc. But the same heresies exist today that did then.

We have the Pharisees and the Judaisers, The Gnostics (who still use the same Gnostic texts even) and the list goes on until you find the Christians.. a bit buried in all this mess admittedly.

So nope. I must disagree with you.

 

[topher694]

Sorry but if all this means people are saved or kept saved by their deeds--it is blasphemous agains the blood of Jesus shed for our sin!

Rewards are conditioned by the level of our obedience but salvation is based on trust in the death , burial and resuurection of Jesus for all our sin ----PERIOD!

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The are ye is in the present idicative, and "saved" is the perfect passive participle.

So in English it would read thusly:

For by grace you have now and will keep on being saved saved! Not of yourselves or of works!!!!!

Oooops, you forgot verse 10. I'm sure it was just an oversight.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't get the point of this thread. I can only speak of my own Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, but I disagree with the general idea that "we" are far removed from the early Church. For one thing, the core of the anaphoras that we use in the liturgy -- those of St. Basil, St. Cyril, and St. Gregory -- all date back to the 4th century itself, which is within the period the OP is apparently talking about in whatever the mention of the popularity of the Shepherd of Hermas is supposed to mean.

Furthermore, we specifically don't affirm any councils after 431 AD, so there is less development in theology than in the Western churches. I'm not going to argue that this makes us "closer to the early Church", since I know all the Chalcedonians will argue (rightly) that their dyophysite theology is present in the early Church prior to Chalcedon (as is recognized, for instance, in the Formula of Reunion between HH St. Cyril and John of Antioch), so I don't want to start an argument about that, but still it should be recognized.

The canons that govern our Church include thirteen attributed to St. Basil and found in the Coptic language (translated from the original Greek), clearly rooted in the writings of the saint himself and, most importantly for the purposes of this thread, shared with the Greeks in Egypt (indicating their pre-Chalcedonian vintage).

Furthermore we have preserved monasteries and churches in Egypt that date to the third and fourth centuries and are still inhabited and used to this day, such as the monastery of St. Anthony on the Red Sea (established during the reign of Julian the Apostate, 361-363), the monastery of the Romans ("Deir El Baramous", est. c. 330-340), or the Hanging Church (الكنيسة المعلقة El Mo'allaqa) in Coptic Cairo (est. 3rd century).

Others can claim similar things, like the embattled Saffron monastery in Turkey (Deir El Zafaran) of the Syrians (est. 397), the Garima Gospels of the Ethiopians (two illuminated Gospel manuscripts which are the oldest complete examples of that art in the entire world, c. 390-570 and 530-660, respectively, according to carbon dating), or the Cathedral of Holy Etchmiadzin of the Armenians (c. 303-483, depending on whether or not you believe in the traditional date of the building, which says that it was begun in 301 when King Tiridates III converted to Christianity, and was completed two years later in 303; we know it was definitely in place by 450 AD, because the traditional story that the Zoroastrian king of Persia Yazdegerd II attempted to force his religion on the Armenians was confirmed by an archaeological dig in the 1950s that found the remains of the fire temple the king built within the Cathedral in 450 AD).

So I'm really not seeing it. Maybe other people's churches are far away from the early Church, but if there are some who are still doing things as they have always been done, then I don't think this "our churches" stuff sits right with me. And I know the Chalcedonians (Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics) would say much the same things, as they too have ancient churches, ancient monasteries, and ancient rites and customs that they preserve.

Then again, I don't think anything that attempts to indict all of Christianity in something is going to fit very well, since so many things fit under that label. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[redleghunter]

This is in the canon and should do the job:

1 Thessalonians 5 (NKJV)

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always,
17 pray without ceasing,
18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren. 28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't get the point of this thread. I can only speak of my own Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, but I disagree with the general idea that "we" are far removed from the early Church. For one thing, the core of the anaphoras that we use in the liturgy -- those of St. Basil, St. Cyril, and St. Gregory -- all date back to the 4th century itself, which is within the period the OP is apparently talking about in whatever the mention of the popularity of the Shepherd of Hermas is supposed to mean.

Furthermore, we specifically don't affirm any councils after 431 AD, so there is less development in theology than in the Western churches. I'm not going to argue that this makes us "closer to the early Church", since I know all the Chalcedonians will argue (rightly) that their dyophysite theology is present in the early Church prior to Chalcedon (as is recognized, for instance, in the Formula of Reunion between HH St. Cyril and John of Antioch), so I don't want to start an argument about that, but still it should be recognized.

The canons that govern our Church include thirteen attributed to St. Basil and found in the Coptic language (translated from the original Greek), clearly rooted in the writings of the saint himself and, most importantly for the purposes of this thread, shared with the Greeks in Egypt (indicating their pre-Chalcedonian vintage).

Furthermore we have preserved monasteries and churches in Egypt that date to the third and fourth centuries and are still inhabited and used to this day, such as the monastery of St. Anthony on the Red Sea (established during the reign of Julian the Apostate, 361-363), the monastery of the Romans ("Deir El Baramous", est. c. 330-340), or the Hanging Church (الكنيسة المعلقة El Mo'allaqa) in Coptic Cairo (est. 3rd century).

Others can claim similar things, like the embattled Saffron monastery in Turkey (Deir El Zafaran) of the Syrians (est. 397), the Garima Gospels of the Ethiopians (two illuminated Gospel manuscripts which are the oldest complete examples of that art in the entire world, c. 390-570 and 530-660, respectively, according to carbon dating), or the Cathedral of Holy Etchmiadzin of the Armenians (c. 303-483, depending on whether or not you believe in the traditional date of the building, which says that it was begun in 301 when King Tiridates III converted to Christianity, and was completed two years later in 303; we know it was definitely in place by 450 AD, because the traditional story that the Zoroastrian king of Persia Yazdegerd II attempted to force his religion on the Armenians was confirmed by an archaeological dig in the 1950s that found the remains of the fire temple the king built within the Cathedral in 450 AD).

So I'm really not seeing it. Maybe other people's churches are far away from the early Church, but if there are some who are still doing things as they have always been done, then I don't think this "our churches" stuff sits right with me. And I know the Chalcedonians (Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics) would say much the same things, as they too have ancient churches, ancient monasteries, and ancient rites and customs that they preserve.

Then again, I don't think anything that attempts to indict all of Christianity in something is going to fit very well, since so many things fit under that label. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Apologies, when a post reformation christian posts "our churches" there tends to be a myopia for anything Roman Catholic or before.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh. Okay. I don't know what Charismatic is (is it a denomination? I didn't think so; I thought it was more of an approach to Christianity), so I didn't know what to make of what was written, but I wanted to respond because the OP referenced some of the saints that are somewhat uniquely recognized (now, after being removed from the Roman Catholic calendar) by the OO church, like St. Clement of Alexandria.

Sorry for the disruption and confusion, and thanks for informing me of the intended parameters of the discussion. I'll exit the thread now.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Oh. Okay. I don't know what Charismatic is (is it a denomination? I didn't think so; I thought it was more of an approach to Christianity), so I didn't know what to make of what was written, but I wanted to respond because the OP referenced some of the saints that are somewhat uniquely recognized (now, after being removed from the Roman Catholic calendar) by the OO church, like St. Clement of Alexandria.

Sorry for the disruption and confusion, and thanks for informing me of the intended parameters of the discussion. I'll exit the thread now.

Your post was welcome, illustrating a blindspot, educational even.

God bless.