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One thing to consider - if believing that there are other deities in existence other than God or Jesus Christ - is the reality that even religions built around them still can have it where the Holy Spirit is present working in that religion and using it as a bridge to bring others to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.If pagan ants have been worshiping me for generations, and have named me, built temples, and written all sorts of mythology about me... then yes, I guess I would be the being they know as a god. I am most certainly not just a figment of their imagination! But if the One True God has chosen to reveal Himself to them, then there really is no comparison between me and Him.
So anyway, when I say I believe that pagan gods exist, I simply mean that I am aware that some of them are actual entities, and that people in the past (and a few in the present) have worshiped them. I can even imagine that these entities have interacted with humans, and maybe even tried to do some benevolent, altruistic things for them. I do not see where the Bible backs up popular Christian doctrine, which states that all "other" gods are demons in league with Satan, and all part of a worldwide scheme to deceive people and deprive us of our right to Salvation through Jesus Christ.
Other gods are simply the powers that be, and God has asked that we do not worship them, or place their desires for us over what He has to say.
Very interesting and refreshing post!
This might be not excactly same thing, but I feel its related enough to mention.
After I myself expanded my study of divine outside of christian sources I was buffled by one thing: In christianity there is position that searching for spiritual beings (other than christian god) will eventually lead into problems, such as demonic contacts or posession by harmful spirits.
Now, studying what witches, pagans etc. have to say on topic of contacting spiritual beings, story goes like this: There are good and harmful spirits, you learn to shield yourself from harmful ones and you can go on with good ones.
So, actually they agree with christian version on that harmful things can happen, but thats not only thing out there to find, its just a risk, not necessity. And as sidenote, I have to mention that I don't consider devout christian practise riskfree either, some people have lost their mental health doing it.
So, what I'm trying to say that I have became to realize that very likely there are far more neutral, or not clearly bad or good beings in spiritual world than just good and evil. I think "devil in disguise" - theory doesn't make justice to the experiences generally, cause some of them seem to bring "good fruit".
I have also personally experienced things for which I'm unable to find any meaningful cathegory in good-bad axis, it has been more of "oh, that kind of stuff exists" than had any great good or bad meaning.
* Sorry for resurrecting old thread, but this is rather rare position for orthodox (?) christian to hold, so I felt I badly wanted to comment it.
Gxg (G²);66565345 said:(large pictures)
Try now...Real quicky G,
Gxg (G²);66558458 said:On what it is that you're noting, thank you for taking the time to note what you did. It is actually something I've noted to others for some time when it comes to the complexities of the spiritual realm - as it concerns the existence of other gods. On the subject, I am reminded of how
Christ seemed to make clear distinction between how "gods" are used as a term in reference to higher beings and reference to men when using Psalm 82 to speak of himself being Divine based on what the Law said. And as it concerns what Jesus noted in John 10 on "gods", indeed it was not beyond Jewish thought to think that other gods/beings existed. It was actually the minority who worshiped only YHWH. In earliest Judaism, I don't doubt that the people believed in all of the claimed gods of the nations, but they were told to restrict their worship to YHWH. Not that the other gods didn't exist, but that it was improper for them to worship these other deities, since it was YHWH who delivered them from Egypt. If it had been Kemosh who extended his hand and redeemed the people from Egypt, they would have worshiped him instead.
It was not until a later stage in the religious development of the people of Israel that the gods of the other nations turned from "weaker gods" into "no gods at all - only images". The whole point of the Exodus was that YHWH was strong enough to defeat the gods of the Egyptians and to take his people out of their land. If there were no gods in Egypt, what was the point of YHWH showing off? It wouldn't have required much at all, since no one could have offered resistance to him...and in the beginnng, the beings backing Egypt could duplicate some of what God did such as turning staffs into snakes or making blood--though they were still inferior since Moses's staff/snake ate theirs and they could not reverse the plague of blood at all. They could only keep adding more blood. At one point, they realized that God was superior in all ways to the "false gods."
In the mind of the ancient Hebrew people, the "gods" of other nations were real deities. YHWH received Israel as his inheritance, but other gods received other peoples. This is mentioned in Deut 32:8-99, where the nations are apportioned to the sons of the Gods (see the LXX and DSS on these verses, which read ἀγγέλων θεοῦ and בני אל [or בני אלים], respectively, instead of the MT בני ישראל.
When Elyon apportioned the nations, when he separated the sons of man, he established the borders of the peoples by the number of the sons of the gods/Israel, and YHWH's portion was his people,* Yaakov the region of his inheritance.בהנחל עליון גוים בהפרידו בני אדם
יצב גבלת עמים למספר בני אלים\ישראל
כי חלק יהו-ה עמו יעקב חבל נחלתו
We see here Elyon apportioning the peoples according to the number of the children of the gods, and each God received a portion among the sons of man. YHWH received Israel as his own inheritance. [The dividing of the nations according to the MT was "by the number of the sons of Israel", which is assumed to be the 70 who went down into Egypt along with Jacob and his household. This is what led to the mistaken belief that there are only 70 nations in the world.]
As it concerns the issue that GOD's in control ultimately/the only one to be worshipped, one can go online/look up for more on what was mentioned earlier on the concept of Monolatry...and for some extra info, here are some excellent resources you can investigate for yourself if choosing to go online/look them up under the following titles:
As one kat said best on the issue:
- "Jewish Encyclopedia: Monolatry" ()
- "Google Books - Idolatry By Moshe Halbertal, Avishai Margalit"
- "Monotheism & Christology | Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth"http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/the-defense-of-an-essential/monotheism-christology/( )
- "Hywel Clifford and Monotheism in Deutero-Isaiah « Daniel O McClellan ..." ( )
- "The Birth and Evolution of Judaism: National Monolatry and Monotheism"
- "The Ten Commandments: A History of Monotheism in Miniature - Ancient Hebrew Poetry"
- "Moses and Monotheism: Scholars debate whether the Israelites recognized only one God or worshipped only one God " ( )
Monolatry dealt with those in positions of rulership and Paul even noted that. There was a dualistic thought of the ways in which "god" was seen. For as 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 demonstrates, Paul explicitly grants that there are "so-called gods" in heaven and earth such as the pagans recognized in Greek and Roman mythology. In addition, he mentions the many "gods" (again, a desigination of something) and "Lords" (rulers) who are called such in scripture (Deuteronomy 10:16-18/Deuteronomy 10 ,Psalm 136:1-3/Psalm 136 ), and who in the widest sense represent rulers in the universe who're SUBORDINATE to God ( Colossians 1:15-17 , Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:13-15, etc ).The belief that only YHVH is an independently effective divine power is de facto monotheistic. It reduces all other supernatural beings to the level of angels, spirits, and the like. Since biblical Hebrew generally continued to use words for "gods" (elim and elohim) to refer to those supernatural beings, whose existence was not denied, we cannot speak of monotheism in the etymological sense of the word but only in the practical, de facto sense just described.
As Albright put it, "Mosaic monotheism, like that of the following centuries (at least down to the seventh century [B.C.E.]) was practical and implicit rather than intellectual and explicit The Israelites felt, thought, and acted like monotheists."
Galatians 4:7-9 also comes to mind, as it concerns the pursuit of devoting oneself to legalism as something that's essentially paganism/worship of "gods...
In pagan culture, those "gods"===especially within Greek culture==were seen as independent/all-powerful as if they were SUPREME Gods to be worshipped. What Paul is teaching is that the "so-called gods" of the pagans are unreal in the sense that they're deified/held as those to be worshipped...and that the real "gods" and "lords", whatever they may be, are all subordinate to the only one supreme God whom alone we recognize.
This is why understanding Hebraic language is so key, as whenever people hear the phrase "there is no god but me", there'll be error if failing to recognize that saying such does not mean that there're no other "rulers/mighty ones" or those in positions of authority in existence----but solely in the sense of others who're worthy of worship or independent in/of themselves.
As seen in verse 6 of I Corinthians 8, the Father is the source (ex hou) of all creation, and Jesus Christ is the dynamic One through whom (di' hou ) creation came into existence. As for the Christian, he lives for God who is the source of alll and has power for so living through Jesus Christ. Consequently, as Paul implies, there should be no concern with idols or meat sacrificed to idols---which is Pauls' larger theme if going throughout the book fully...
For in verse 4, the main thing to remember is that what was occuring was that people were afraid of eating meat offered to idols and Paul had to make clear that the idols before which the meat was sacrificed and the god it represented were actually nothing--that is, nothing as to personal reality and power. Deuteronomy 6:4 , 1 Kings 18:38-, Isaiah 45:4-6 ).
If considering the concept of Psalm 82/The Divine Council, it'd make sense if it was referencing those fallen heavenly beings that fell from their places of authority----beings in which the scriptures say men are foolish for even trying to slander them/speak flippantly on them-----for if they did not do their job and sought to do their own thing, Psalm 82 would be a good description of how the Lord cursed them....
(II Peter 2:11
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
Another option, of course, is Henotheism. What Henotheism focuses on is saying that there are other gods...and that while one may choose to worship one, there's nothing wrong with worshipping another if one wants to. That is not the same as saying other gods exist but ONLY One is worthy of Worship/Supreme (which is what's known as Monolatry....the system that early Hebrew culture/believers advocated). Henotheism is similar but less exclusive than monolatry because a monolator worships only one god (denying that other gods are worthy of worship), while the henotheist may worship any within the pantheon, depending on circumstances, although they usually will worship only one throughout their life (barring some sort of conversion). Some things labeled "henotheism" are not within the same realm as other systems...although the labels may not be the most accurate. For more, one can go online/consider the following (if searching under this specific label):Jude 1:7-10
8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animalsthese are the very things that destroy them.
Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own homethese he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
- "HEBREW HENOTHEISM" ( //www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm )
This is in fact what most people encounter when they do manage to sense the spiritual realm. That there are some powerful beings, and some not so powerful beings.
Real quicky G, do you think you could edit down some of these picture sizes? It's blowing up my screen! I can't read anything on the page without having to scroll back and forth and back and forth on each line.
I think most common thing people say when they get contacted by spiritual reality or spiritual beings is "this is very different than what I was told / what I thought".
For me, greatest surprise has been the nature of god himself. Or more accurately: nature of being I'm used to refer to as "god".
As christian I used to seek for experience-based relationship with god, and in some years I indeed found such relationship with someone/something. But I'm not sure that is christian god, and ever since I have been struggling with where to fit these experiences, in christian theology or elsewhere. So far, there have been no satisfying answer for me.
It seems to me that this "thou shalt not sin or thou shalt be cast in lake of fire" - styled christian god seems like twisted, fear-based image of this wonderful divine being that has made contact with me. Or then I have managed to make accidentally contact with someone else.
We have no explanation as to why God would touch someone else who doesn't believe the way we do... so we label that entity as a demon and blindly move on.
For many years I kept my eyes open, just waiting for the moment that he might turn on me and reveal himself as the Devil.
I think this is something we all have to deal with, Jack. The reality of the entity we encounter, verses all the things people have said about him over the ages.
There's actually a simpler way of addressing those issues - and that's re-sizing or editing on the screen one uses. I've had to do that several times when seeing someone had either too big a font for my screen (as I use a lap-top and sometimes wide-screen computer) or I couldn't get to everything - especially when seeing the reality of dealing with differing types of people and knowing that some are visual learners (i.e. imagery is necessary/part of their learning and thus it'd be disrespectful not remembering that) or others prefer wide-screen (due to age, as it can be too small for them to read). Others are always coming from differing angles and it can be rather petty claiming anything is "overpost textwalls" when the reality is that they cannot process as much or have their own limits which are not thsoe of others and there's better ways to do things than blaming others.Just in case you didn't know there is tool for that kind of problem:
http://www.christianforums.com/profile/foes/
There you can add someone to your ignore- list, so posts by them aren't shown. I always ignore users who overpost textwalls or pictures, so I won't miss other users posts.
Ignoring is not permament so it can be used temporarily too, for example reading this thread and then allowing him again.
Gxg (G²);66573574 said:There's actually a simpler way of addressing those issues - and that's re-sizing or editing on the screen one uses. I've had to do that several times when seeing someone had either too big a font for my screen (as I use a lap-top and sometimes wide-screen computer) or I couldn't get to everything - especially when seeing the reality of dealing with differing types of people and knowing that some are visual learners (i.e. imagery is necessary/part of their learning and thus it'd be disrespectful not remembering that) or others prefer wide-screen (due to age, as it can be too small for them to read). Others are always coming from differing angles and it can be rather petty claiming anything is "overpost textwalls" when the reality is that they cannot process as much or have their own limits which are not thsoe of others and there's better ways to do things than blaming others.
Tobias, I don't have a problem with that. I never expected one to get to all of them at once - and to be truthful, I've had the same dynamic reading some of your postings elsewhereEach one of your posts is pretty involved G, so hopefully you won't mind if i take them one at a time, when I get the time to address them?
Biblically, as it concerns monotheism, the main thing inherent in it is that only one being is worthy of Worship - and it never was the case that the Hebrews ever went to explicit monotheism that ignored the existence of other beings who were worshipped. They were - as said before - de-facto monotheist due to seeing God alone as worthy of worship, even as they had already acknowledged the existence of other beings. And as Moses himself was the one who already said "The Lord Our God, the Lord is One" while ALSO saying "Who among the gods is like you?", it was never an "either or" scenario of "There must be ONE God - or ALL Gods." It was always about the Lord being Unique above all else.I am aware that there is a study of scripture that tries to identify what the Hebrews believed, how it developed, and where it ended up at the time Christianity began. I'm just not sure that the Jews knew everything! It seems to me that monotheism was their answer to the problem of their people worshiping other gods. That it developed as a religious fence to try to keep people from committing "sin". Kind of like how dancing was considered a sin not too long ago, because the preachers were sure it led to fornication.
The POINT was to worship God alone. That was the command of God. And as usual, theology is built to justify WHY God has asked such a thing.
Henotheism isn't something that has never been defined in academia - if asking scholars on the matter - as it simply means that ONE God is worshiped even though there are others in existence whom people chose to worship. In a Henotheistic system, the dominant God has a role that is won through strength and there is potential for another being to dethrone him or her and then become the new God worshipped - and in a Biblical sense, the system would only work if God alone was on the same level as all other gods.....but because he isn't, there's no competition and thus monolatry is more accurate.As for henotheism... perhaps that is a good solution, but for what? Nobody seems to know what it means. Ask two people who claim they are henotheists, get three different answers. lol
It depends on how one grew up, really - for some people already understanding combinations of systems. They understood systems such as theism - the fact that there WAS a Creator of some kind - but from there it was multi-developed. The system of Theism for others was a mixture of polytheism and monotheism - believing in many beings but knowing that one alone was worthy of worship (even as others had roles to play) - or a mixture of Panentheism and monotheism (i.e. God exists outside of the physical universe and the cosmos exist entirely within Him, including all beings deemed "gods", and he is keeping it all going just as our immune system exists within us) or seeing God from a Hindu perspective (such as saying he was all that existed before spreading himself out in order to give life to the world) or a Buddhist perspective or some other combination. (I find that theology is built backwards from experience. It requires that first we must make up our minds as to whether we believe in One God or many, then we spend a lifetime working on spiritual relationships. Who's to say that, in the end, we don't run into more of them than what we'd guessed at the start?
Everyone's on a different level of journey and understanding.Walking a spiritual path we learn to do good deeds and overcome obstacles. And if we are lucky, in a couple of decades we might just happen to figure out one of the basic, fundamental questions that everyone else seems to be able to check off on the Standard Religious Placement Test before they even get started.
Most Christians don't believe other gods exist, but I do. So let me try to explain:
To the ants, I could be known as the fearsome god of death and destruction. I may not be omnipresent, but with one hand I can strike down an ant on my bookshelf, while at the same time kill another one with my other hand 5 ft away on the other side of my desk! At other times though, I am the god of provision, dropping wonderful tasty treats on the floor and on my keyboard () as I snack on junk food while sitting at my computer.
To most Christians, other gods are either imaginary or are simply demons pretending to be something they are not.
But back to my analogy with the ants, a Christian ant could recognize that I exist without feeling the need to worship me. Pagan ants might think they could appease me through worship or by making sacrifices to me. A Christian ant might feel superior, knowing that these efforts are useless. Also in being aware that there is a God who created everything including even me, and that if He takes an interest in the situation then I have to obey Him too. But still, I have the power of life or death over any ant that comes near my space.
Does this make me a god? That depends I suppose on how we define the word "god". If pagan ants have been worshiping me for generations, and have named me, built temples, and written all sorts of mythology about me... then yes, I guess I would be the being they know as a god. I am most certainly not just a figment of their imagination! But if the One True God has chosen to reveal Himself to them, then there really is no comparison between me and Him.
So anyway, when I say I believe that pagan gods exist, I simply mean that I am aware that some of them are actual entities, and that people in the past (and a few in the present) have worshiped them. I can even imagine that these entities have interacted with humans, and maybe even tried to do some benevolent, altruistic things for them. I do not see where the Bible backs up popular Christian doctrine, which states that all "other" gods are demons in league with Satan, and all part of a worldwide scheme to deceive people and deprive us of our right to Salvation through Jesus Christ.
Other gods are simply the powers that be, and God has asked that we do not worship them, or place their desires for us over what He has to say.
Just in case you didn't know there is tool for that kind of problem:
http://www.christianforums.com/profile/foes/
There you can add someone to your ignore- list, so posts by them aren't shown. I always ignore users who overpost textwalls or pictures, so I won't miss other users posts.
Ignoring is not permament so it can be used temporarily too, for example reading this thread and then allowing him again.
Gxg (G²);66573654 said:Tobias, I don't have a problem with that. I never expected one to get to all of them at once - and to be truthful, I've had the same dynamic reading some of your postings elsewhere
Biblically, as it concerns monotheism, the main thing inherent in it is that only one being is worthy of Worship - and it never was the case that the Hebrews ever went to explicit monotheism that ignored the existence of other beings who were worshipped. They were - as said before - de-facto monotheist due to seeing God alone as worthy of worship, even as they had already acknowledged the existence of other beings. And as Moses himself was the one who already said "The Lord Our God, the Lord is One" while ALSO saying "Who among the gods is like you?", it was never an "either or" scenario of "There must be ONE God - or ALL Gods." It was always about the Lord being Unique above all else.
So we cannot go beyond that point in assuming theology was built automatically to justify the issue - it was a natural development of what God already said.
Henotheism isn't something that has never been defined in academia - if asking scholars on the matter - as it simply means that ONE God is worshiped even though there are others in existence whom people chose to worship. In a Henotheistic system, the dominant God has a role that is won through strength and there is potential for another being to dethrone him or her and then become the new God worshipped - and in a Biblical sense, the system would only work if God alone was on the same level as all other gods.....but because he isn't, there's no competition and thus monolatry is more accurate.
It depends on how one grew up, really - for some people already understanding combinations of systems. They understood systems such as theism - the fact that there WAS a Creator of some kind - but from there it was multi-developed. The system of Theism for others was a mixture of polytheism and monotheism - believing in many beings but knowing that one alone was worthy of worship (even as others had roles to play) - or a mixture of Panentheism and monotheism (i.e. God exists outside of the physical universe and the cosmos exist entirely within Him, including all beings deemed "gods", and he is keeping it all going just as our immune system exists within us) or seeing God from a Hindu perspective (such as saying he was all that existed before spreading himself out in order to give life to the world) or a Buddhist perspective or some other combination. (
But as it concerns being Biblical, one can't really claim that to be their focus if already making up their mind on what they want to believe - and then not dealing with the text on its turns. Yes, I could say it's all make-believe what the Bible says and God's really like the Wizard of Oz. But at that point, there'd be no point in really being concerned for the Bible or wondering on it
Everyone's on a different level of journey and understanding.
The cosmology you described seems to fit pretty well with Buddhism.
In Buddhism, there are multiple levels of heavens, each filled with beings far superior in strength, beauty, power, life, glory, etc. than those in the lower ones. As you pointed out, an ant or other animals might consider us gods, just as we might consider a being from one of these exalted heavens a god.
The beings of the higher realms do not generally interact with us because they are involved in the sense pleasures of their own planes of existence, just like most of mankind do not generally interact with ants for the same reason.
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