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FlaviusAetius

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I'm thinking the similar thoughts as the Gnostics did in separating the OT God from the NT God.

My reason is, from what I gather adultery laws only were sentenced to married women and their lover but married men could have sex with unmarried women all they wanted (IE: prostitutes, sex slaves from war and mistresses)

Why would God allow this in the OT? Why change in the NT to purity for both sexes?
 

pdudgeon

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it's not how God allowed it, but how men understood both marriage and women.

women were the possessions of their fathers and then their husbands. and if a woman was unmarried, she was under the rule/responsibility of her brother. or if a widdow, of her adult son or closest male relative. (eg. Ruth, Boaz, and Naomi are good examples) Women had no voice, no vote, and could not be counted as witnesses.

Jesus changed all that.
Some women understood in Jesus' day, but it took a while before men understood these things.
 
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FlaviusAetius

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But adultery laws were supposed to be divine commands right? So I still feel the fact remains, why would God favor and save married men who sullied their marriage with adultery but then change his mind?

Are there unashamed adulterers in heaven who came from before the New Covenant?
 
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pdudgeon

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are you thinking of David by any chance? God did save David, (who repented, btw) but at the same time David paid the price for his adultery in the death of the son who was conceived as a result.
 
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longhair75

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This has always puzzled me. In John 8, the Pharisees bring Jesus a woman caught in the very act of adultery. The man with whom she has committed this act is nowhere in sight. Adultery is not a one person sin. What about the man? Did they stone men for adultery? I don't know that I have ever heard of that happening.

I have read quite a lot over the years about women taking the blame in sexual misconduct and the man getting away with claiming that "The woman tempted me."
 
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WarriorAngel

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Remember - partially the reason we saw the OT as it was - was a reflection of how it would be in the afterlife.
The 2nd death which Jesus came to explain..
so it became less judgment for each other in the NT and more 'leave it to God'

AND partly because we must remember man still had their own objectives involved.

Jesus said 'Moses knew the hardness of your hearts....'
IE - he had authority to write via God - the law.
[BUT for that time]

God came and clarified things.

Same God - less 'reasoning and speaking of men.'
 
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FlaviusAetius

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are you thinking of David by any chance? God did save David, (who repented, btw) but at the same time David paid the price for his adultery in the death of the son who was conceived as a result.

I wasn't thinking of David particularly, but he is the most famous example. Actually this bothers me greatly too because David is "punished" by God killing someone who is innocent of any crime in this affair, IE the child. It also means that the OT God along with approving of genocide also actively aborted a child. I say aborted rather than miscarriage because God did not just allow fallen nature to let the child die, he personally had a hand in killing an innocent life to punish David. Unless I'm to believe every miscarriage ever is God actively choosing to abort certain couples children, knowing the pain it causes.


This only seems to prove that God's notion of goodness isn't based on some ideal but purely a arbitrary whim of God's. After all OT soldiers were told that God demanded genocide of pagans, so either all these people are in hell because God did not give them proper morality or Heaven is filled with unrepentant genocidal Hebrew soldiers who also all likely were unrepentant and had mistresses, sex slaves and used prostitutes.

Both options put God in a absolutely horrible light. It also makes God seem to follow relativism where he allows OT men to be saved despite adultery and slaughtering men women and children, but NT men must be perfect to be saved.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Here is what Pope St. John Paul II said:

Source:
Mulieris Dignitatem, John Paul II, 15 August 1988 - Apostolic Letter
 
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WarriorAngel

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I have no clue where you got that from what i said.

St Paul said God wrote His laws into their hearts.
IE - their conscience was formed by God to not kill, etc.

But werent we on adultery?

It was not allowed.

As for the woman who was almost stoned, she was a 'woman of the night' or however one would call it.
That's why all the men put the stones down.
I'm guessing they were probably with her at one time.
Hence Jesus was conveying their equal sin of adultery.

I dont know that for sure, but it seems logical.
 
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FlaviusAetius

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But it only punished women and their lover. So why was God's law allowed to be hypocritical in the OT?

My point for mentioning genocide is that this is another big place God changes.

He went from "I order you to kill pagans, men, women and children." To "love your enemies."

That doesn't sound like the same God.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Jesus said....
Moses knew how hard your hearts were?

1. It shows authority was given to Moses to lead them and give them laws.
OUTSIDE of the 10 Commandments...of course.
Which were from God.
2. As i said before [maybe not in here?] that the OT was mostly about the living model of the judgment.

IE - anything that folks stoned for - via the way the men were - [hard hearts] - were not to be left for judgment of men but for God.
Jesus came and explained the right ways.

i'm tired, my head is killing me, i smashed my knee at work so im sore...
if im not sounding coherent - im just pooped and this is a very lengthy explanation.

perhaps see what LWU has from JPll.
 
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LoAmmi

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Men were not killed for that act, though it wasn't exactly permissible either. The why is something I don't know. Seen speculation that it had to do with inheritance rights and tribal status since that passed through the father, but I can't say that really is convincing.

Something of note in John 8 is that those people are violating the actual way you would punish a person. You didn't bring them to random people, you would take them to a court who would decide what happened. It worked very much the same way you would be convicted of a crime today except there was no jury. So whenever I, as a Jew, have that shared with me my thought isn't about mercy so much as "Why are these people dragging a woman off to have some guy decide her fate instead of taking her to the court?". I've had it explained to me that it's about showing people who sin can't cast judgement but I'm confused by that. Christians did, in fact, setup courts to punish criminals.
 
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longhair75

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Even today, under Sharia law in the Muslim world women are blamed and punished for the transgressions of men. Rape victims are stoned while the rapists are in the crowd throwing rocks. The roots of this travesty are deep in history.
 
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LoAmmi

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Even today, under Sharia law in the Muslim world women are blamed and punished for the transgressions of men. Rape victims are stoned while the rapists are in the crowd throwing rocks. The roots of this travesty are deep in history.

The Law did not protect rapists.
 
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longhair75

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The Law did not protect rapists.
I agree that Old Testament law did not protect the rapist, but the idea of women as chattel morphed into something obscene from that point among the other Middle Eastern cultures.
 
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WarriorAngel

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It unjust...and a man's law to be sure.
Which is why it's so popular among the ME men.
Do a crime and kill the victim... it's just so illogical but the woman needs 3 witnesses and they have to be men.
It's ridiculous.

Goes to show they have no God of love or fairness.
Not the same person as we have in Jesus [Trinity]
 
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WarriorAngel

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Yes, but they wanted to test Jesus and see how He would react in the situation.
They tried to trip Him up many times.
His wisdom silenced them 99% of the time.
 
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LoAmmi

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Yes, but they wanted to test Jesus and see how He would react in the situation.
They tried to trip Him up many times.
His wisdom silenced them 99% of the time.

Trip him up how though? If I capture a robber and wander over to the local church and ask the guy in charge what should be done with him, I've not followed the procedures I'm supposed to follow and whatever the guy in charge says is pretty insignificant because he's not the person per due process that is given the ability to make the call. Now, I can see the Jesus is G-d argument coming, but even still I'd say that the procedures still do not allow for taking this woman to anybody other than the proper authorities.

I'm still unsure of the wisdom though. We still have courts that hold trials for those accused of crimes. Why aren't you kicking down the doors telling the jury and judge that because they have sinned, they aren't qualified to pass judgement on this murderer, rapist, robber, or whatever else? It's like people tell me he made a great point and it must just sail right over my head because I think criminals should be prosecuted.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Trip him up how though?
I think I read somewhere that if Jesus would have said, "Stone her," the Pharisees would have had him arrested by the Romans for going against Roman law, since under Roman law the Jews didn't have authority to execute anyone. But if he had said, "Don't kill her," then the Pharisees would have accused Jesus of going against Jewish law. But Jesus knew exactly what they were up to and knew exactly how to handle it.
 
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