OSAS sermon notes and critique of OSNAS passage usage

[daveleau]

Hi everybody!

A 2-part sermon by Adrian Rogers (www.lwf.org) was passed my way (recording) by Tenorvoice and it really helped with my OSAS/eternal security/ perseverance of the saints versus OSNAS study. Here is what I got out of it. 80% or more of this came directly from the sermon (to give credit where credit is due). I hope this will help as it gives a string of passages supporting OSAS and a response to the OSNAS passages.



The Bible indeed teaches that once a person is saved, he is always saved...
There are 2 types of people to discuss here.....
1. Those who were not saved, but appeared to be... 1 John 2:19
2. Those who accept Christ through faith… Romans 10:9


OSAS: Notes from Dr Adrian Rogers 2 part sermon
Part 1

Scripture of note to start off with:
John 10:27-29 (cannot pluck them out of my hand)
Matt 7:22,23 (Lord, Lord, did I not prophesy in your name- I never knew you) (not those that profess Christianity and turn away. These are those who never believed.)
1 John 2:19 (they went out from us, but they never belonged to us) The faith that fizzled before the finish had a flaw from the beginning.


Reasons to know you are eternally secure:
1: Promise- God has promised to keep us from evil
a) Rom 8:38,39- nothing can separate us from the Love of God
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will have the power to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!


2: Perseverance: God is going to finish what He started
a) Phil 1:6- If God starts with us, He will finish with us.


3: Predestination:
a) Rom 8:29- God predestined us to be His
b) How could we lose our salvation if we are predestined to be glorified by God
c) God saw us beforehand, He saw what we would do before we did it, so he predestined us. This does not take out our free will. We choose God, but because God saw that we were going to choose Him, He predestined the fact that we will be in Heaven.
d) Rom 11:29- the gifts and calling of God are not undoable


4: Perfection:
a) Heb 10:14- His precious blood has made us perfect forever
b) Does God say, I will forgive your past, but you must keep things clean from here on? We are a new Creature.
c) Where in Scripture is anyone Saved Twice? Where were we Created anew, made old again and then Created anew again? Would Christ not have to die again?
d) What if we sin after we are saved? What if? We WILL sin!
e) Rom 4:5-8 We are saved even if we do not produce fruits or are lawless

5: Position
a) We are already positioned in the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 5:17)
b) We are new creatures in Christ! We are either in Adam or in Christ. We only lose our salvation when Christ loses His salvation.
c) The Ark is a picture of our salvation. (2 Peter 2:5 and Matt 24:37,38) God did not tell Noah to nail in pegs on the side of the Ark and tell Noah and his family to hold on tight so that they might be saved. God brought Noah into the Ark so that they might be saved. Likewise, we are IN Christ. Gen 7:1- God was in the Ark and sealed the door in the same way that God seals our Salvation. (Eph 4:30) The only way for Noah to have been lost would have been for the Ark to sink. Likewise the only way for us to lose our Salvation is for Christ to sink in the same way since we are IN Christ in the same way that Noah was in the Ark. By Faith, Noah was saved (Heb 11: 7)


6) Possession:
a) John 5:24- He that believes HAS everlasting life. It is not something you get when you die. You’ve got it right now, if you truly believe. If a man was saved for 5 years and then lost or gave up his salvation, then he only had a 5 year life. But, God says it is eternal life that we HAVE if we believe.


7) Prayer
a) Jesus has prayed for us. He has interceded for us! John 17:9, 15
b) Christ’s prayers are always answered because He always prays in the Will of God
c) John 17:20- prays for all who believe
d) Heb 7:25- Our Savior is praying for us constantly


8) Power
a) 1 Pet 1:3- 5 We are kept undefiled and uncorrupted by the Power of God through faith
b) What if Satan were to take you out of the hand of God? Matt 7:22,23- No one can take us from the hand of God. The KJV adds the word “man” but this is incorrect. No one, nothing is the correct word here.
c) Can we take ourselves out of God’s hand? John 10:27,28- We shall never perish or (literally translated) The saved cannot destroy themselves.

We have a salvation, not a probation officer. We have a salvation, not just a down payment.
We become new creatures once we are saved. This is irreversible. Rom 8:23 says we are adopted, and the Roman idea of adoption (the audience Paul was writing to) is an irreversible happening as well. Salvation is irreversible. Those that “turn their back on salvation” were not saved at all as is said in 1 John 2:19.



Part 2
Yes, but what about X verse?

What Scriptures supposedly contradict? There are no contradictions, so we made an error in study if we find a contradiction.

OSNAS passage issues:

2 Pet 2:20 – A person can be saved and lost again?
- V20- after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Escaped the pollutions through knowledge- They have heard the Gospel, but did not accept it. Those who do not live by truth experience more and more bondage. Reformation without transformation leads to greater degradation and finally condemnation.
Judas is an example of this. He heard the truth, escaped the pollutions of the world but did not accept Christ. And the second part of his life after refusing Christ was worse.
Those Peter talks about are reformed without regeneration. Two examples:
- a dog returns to his vomit (God never called His saved dogs or pigs.)(The person was not changed. They got rid of the filth in their lives (the dog vomit), but went back to what they spewed out.)
-pig wallowing in his own mire- If you clean up a sinner and they do not accept Christ, they will get dirty again with sin. The natural habitat of the sinner is sin.

If I believed in Eternal Security, then I’d ask for salvation and then sin all I wanted to!
- I do sin all I want to, as a saved man. It’s just that I don’t want to sin! Nothing would make me happier than to know I would never sin again!


Matt 24: 11-13
V13- one who endures to the end will be saved
Does this mean that if we believe until the end or do good works until the end we will be saved?
Actually, those who are saved will endure to the end. In order to endure to the end, you have to be saved. Those who are saved endure. You don’t have to endure to be saved.
We do not hold onto God, God holds onto us.
Luke 22:31 – Satan was looking to remove Peter, but Jesus prayed that Peter’s faith would endure and not only keep Him safe, but be used to strengthen those around Peter. Peter did deny Christ, yet Peter was saved regardless.
Luke 22:47 – Judas is contrasted to Peter in this chapter. Judas was trusted with the money bag. He was highly trusted. Peter, every time he opened his mouth was to insert the other foot. Peter endured, but Judas did not, because Peter had faith, but Judas did not. Jesus knew this from the beginning (John 6:70,71)


John 15:5-10
Christ is not talking about salvation but about fruit bearing. In wine making, the hand at the vineyard prunes the branches that do not produce grapes. If you do not produce fruit as a Christian, you are good for nothing. You do not do the work of the Lord. He does not say that you are not saved. He says you do no work. This passage is about works, not salvation. Theology does not come from a metaphor, but from the epistles. Parables (like this) are intended to make one point. They address one issue and the details are not ever intended as the basis of theology. This parable deals with works as a Christian.


Heb 6:4-9
If this proves that you were once saved but lost it, then it means that you can never be saved again. if you accept this as a verse supporting the potential loss of salvation, then it also proves that twice lost = always lost since it speaks of it being impossible to regain the blessings.
Verse 9 speaks volumes to the context. Here instead Scripture speaks of those who thought of accepting Christ but turned away. They not only had the knowledge of the Gospel, but pondered the choice of believing or not, and instead turned their nose up at it.
A good analogy is a man goes into a store and tries a sample of cheese. He likes it so he orders 2 pounds of it. He gets to the register and sees the price that he has to pay and returns it. This is the type of person that is being talked about here.
The history of this passage bears to the content. The Jewish people were coming from the Law and turning towards Christ. As they turned to the new method God gave them, they were being persecuted and even killed. So, they saw what they would have to go through and they decided not to go through with it. This is the situation that James is talking about. These Jewish people saw Christ, the apostles testify and the changes from the Law to freedom, but reject it. Upon returning to Judaism, they would be tested to see if they truly disbelieved in Christ. The Jewish would take an pig to an unclean place and slaughter it. Then they would command the returning man to spit on the ground soaked in pig’s blood and say that this was the blood of Christ. This was a form of the unpardonable sin, and thus why it was impossible to return.
The analogy that Scripture uses in verses 8 and 9 says that God blesses the Christian and the non-Christian. The difference is the seed in the heart. (Some produce thistles and thorns, others produce fruit.)
This does not speak of Christians turning away, but of those who are tempted to follow Christ but do not follow through. They not only have knowledge of Christ, but feel compelled to follow Him, yet turn away.
Hebrews 12 talks of God chastening the children of God for sin. We do not lose salvation, but we are chastened instead.

Cliff notes:
2 Pet 2:20- speaks of those who have head knowledge of Christ but do not follow.
Matt 24:11-13- speaks of those who are saved WILL endure, and those who are not saved will fall away.
John 15:5-10- Christ is using a parable that talks about being a fruitful Christian, not about Salvation.
Heb 6:4-9- speaks of those who are knowledgeable and want to follow Christ but decide not to because they don’t want to make the sacrifice.

The above are principles that can be applied to all Scripture that is discussed in support of the once-saved-not-always-saved theology.


Other verses quoted as being indicative of OSNAS theology:

1 Tim 1:3-6
Paul is instructing Timothy to support Christian living rather than “myths and endless genealogies.” First, Timothy was written because the Ephesians were falling into Gnosticism and “decadent Judaism” and false asceticism (the doctrine that through renunciation of worldly pleasures it is possible to achieve a high spiritual or intellectual state). We choose to follow Christ or not, and once we choose, we choose to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we do follow Him, we have no problems with acting like a Christian. But, if we do not, we are chastened as talked about in Hebrews 12.


1 Tim 1:18-20
These two were seen as having shipwrecked their faith. This is not indicative of their salvation, but that they have yielded to the issues stated above, and have disabled their testimony and their ability to draw others to Christ. So, their faith which should have brought forth fruit has been shipwrecked and is useless to others. But, this does not describe the nature of their salvation.


1 Tim 3:6
“fall under the same judgment of the devil”
This phrase is often used as someone losing his faith and falling after being saved. Vincent Word Studies says this: “The phrase judgment of the devil probably means the accusing judgment of the devil, and not the judgment passed upon the devil.” This would mean that the man would act like the devil rather than fall under the same judgment. The word translated as “devil” here is rarely used in Scripture, and also means “slanderers.” So, in the context, it leads one to believe that the passage is discussing the issue of judgments by fellow men. If this is true, it would make sense, as the pastor (or bishop in this case) must be “blameless” (1 Tim 3:2), which is talking about in reputation.


1 Tim 4:1
This is speaking of churches rather than people. Churches will be led by those that do not believe and will fall into apostasy, which is the current word used for “teachings of demons” used here. This sounds eerily similar to the teachings of some of the churches today.


Heb 3:12-19
The passage “turn away from a living God” is the same used in the OT when speaking of the Israelites after their deliverance from Egypt. Again, the Greek word is where our word apostasy comes from. This passage’s context begins back at verse 7, where the author of Hebrews begins speaking about not repeating the past sins of the Israelites. The Israelites hardened their hearts to God to the point where they either did not follow God after He delivered them from a trial, or they didn’t heed God at all.


Heb 10:26-31
Here, it says it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of a living God. If these people were already in the hand of God (Matt 7:22), then they would have been saved. But, these were men described like those in 1 John 2:19. They were not believers. They heard the Word, but did not heed God’s call to believe and thus were lost.


1 Cor 5:1-5 – man condemned for sin, handed over to Satan, but salvation not lost. Handing him over was to set him in a trial where he could learn and purge the sin.
1 Thess 2:10-12 – we are called to live holy lives
Acts 15:9 – hearts purified by faith

 

[mesue]

good study.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I am not a Calvinist...but I look at verses saying how we are known of God since before the foundation of the earth, and that we are predestinated by the foreknowlege of God, and then what happens at salvation - and go with OSAS.

First, salvation is the work of God. It is God who draws us to Christ, and gives us to Christ. It is God who forgives us, spiritually circumcizes us, sealing us with the Holy Spirit as HIS pledge of our inheritence. We are born again by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. It is by God that we are made new creatures, establishes us and anoints us, and made complete.
I figure God knows how it all turns out - and who truly believes or not as to stay the course. To say that we can lose our salvation takes away from the omniscience of God.
As for scriptural support:

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."



Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;



Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;



Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.



Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.



Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

1Cr 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[daveleau]

I'm not a Calvinist either, at least completely. I believe the Scriptures describe a freedom to choose and a freedom to deny God despite being called. I believe all people are called to God. God knows prior who will choose what, but that does not affect free will because of God's residence outside of time. This is where Calvinists and my understanding of Scripture diverge. The "predestination" section above does not deny free will. We are predestined because God knows what we will freely choose. I do believe God can and does exercise his sovereignty, but He decides when and where. Paul is an instance of irresistible grace, IMO.

 

[Tenorvoice]

Great note taking Dave.

 

[JPPT1974]

Thanks Freein Christ
You explained it all
Thanks very much!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hi everybody!

A 2-part sermon by Adrian Rogers (www.lwf.org) . . .

Adrian Rogers lists John 10:27-29 as a passage that supports the doctrine of OSAS, but this passage does not evenly remotely suggest such a thing!

John 10:27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (NASB, 1995)

This passage says absolutely nothing about the possibility of a Christian falling from grace and losing his/her salvation. No man can pluck a Christian out of the Father’s hand, but any Christian who chooses to can jump out at any moment he chooses (where in the Bible do you find that upon accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior that God takes away our freedom and our will and hogties us?)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hi everybody!

A 2-part sermon by Adrian Rogers (www.lwf.org) . . . .

Adrian Rogers lists Rom 8:38-39 as a passage that supports the doctrine of OSAS, but it does not evenly remotely suggest such a thing!

38. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39. nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB, 1995)

This passage says absolutely nothing about the possibility of a Christian falling from grace and losing his/her salvation. All of the things in this list are external and have absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that Christians retain their free will upon being saved. Indeed, a Christian has much more free will than does a man who is still in bondage to sin!

 

[HumbleMan]

Good notes. While I still don't believe in predestination, I have come around to the OSAS position. Dave or Tenor, is this recording on hard media or is it a file? If possible, I'd like to hear it myself.

 

[NotEnoughFaith2BeAtheist]

I'm positive Dr. Adrian Rogers did not believe in predestination.

(I go to Belleve Baptist Church, Dr. Rogers' church before went to be with the Lord)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hebrews 6:4-9

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of a Christian that we find anywhere in the Bible.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he used the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the ancient Peshita Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament renders the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins, others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. But the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him, this man or woman is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Because of the extremely severity of the word “impossible” in this verse, many early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now solid and its warning is stern. Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.

 

[MrJim]

Hebrews 6:4-9

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of a Christian that we find anywhere in the Bible.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he used the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the ancient Peshita Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament renders the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins, others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. But the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him, this man or woman is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Because of the extremely severity of the word “impossible” in this verse, many early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now solid and its warning is stern. Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.

 

[daveleau]

With that in mind, do you believe there are contradictions in Scripture? I have proposed a view that helps resolve this apparent conflict. (I am fully convinced there are NO contradictions in Scripture.) Your ideas do not seem to help resolve contradiction, but throw more fuel on the controversy of contradiction. How do you deal with the verses that seem to overtly state that you cannot be separated from God once you accept Christ?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

How do you deal with the verses that seem to overtly state that you cannot be separated from God once you accept Christ?

There are so such verses! No verses anywhere in the Bible were interpreted to mean such a thing for 1500 years, and then it was not for exegetical reasons, but exclusively for theological reasons!

 

[Big Tuck]

How can we undo the work God has done in us when we've done nothing to make him work in us in the first place? I know I can't undo the salvation that God has given me. I don't keep myself in Christ, but Christ keeps me in Him. When my savior falls from His throne then I'll fall from my salvation...sorry to tell ya but that's not going to happen.

Matt

 

[novcncy]

How can we undo the work God has done in us when we've done nothing to make him work in us in the first place? I know I can't undo the salvation that God has given me. I don't keep myself in Christ, but Christ keeps me in Him. When my savior falls from His throne then I'll fall from my salvation...sorry to tell ya but that's not going to happen.

Matt

I wonder why the analogy of sons of God, and the parable of the Prodigal Son? Had the prodigal son died in the strange country, would he have suddenly no longer been the son? Whether or not the son disowns his father is irrelevant. The relationship is permanent, no man is able to "unfather" his child, and most would not even if they could. How much more your Father, who is in heaven? Do you think it an accident that God would use the analogy of a father-son relationship if it could be undone? If He DID do such a thing, lead us to believe we are adopted, it would be downright deceitful, which we know He is not. I am very grateful for my earthly father, and for his love for me, and for the fact that no matter what I do, he will be my father, and love me, and I will be his son. If my earthly, sinful father can endure my slights and wrongdoing, again, how much more my perfect Father, who is in Heaven?

Just a hodge podge of related thoughts. No deep theology here, but I would submit that this isn't a deep theological issue. Think about them, if you care to.

 

[daveleau]

There are so such verses! No verses anywhere in the Bible were interpreted to mean such a thing for 1500 years, and then it was not for exegetical reasons, but exclusively for theological reasons!

I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree on both points and point to the OP regarding refutation of your first assertion. As for the second assertion that no such thing existed in the early church, Peter is the prime example of not losing one's salvation despite perpetrating quite possibly the greatest sin Christ experienced. Peter denied Christ 3 times, in His presence, yet nothing is said about his losing his salvation. Another issue is that no one in Scripture is said to be saved twice. The adoption is irreversible. If it is reversible, then Paul was incorrect in his use of the references to adoption to the Romans, because Roman adoption was irreversible irregardless of what the adopting father later decided. Did Paul incorrectly use this analogy in his writing of Romans?

I have gone through and noted about many OSNAS Scriptures and why they don't support that stance. Can someone that is OSNAS go through and show how the ones I listed that support OSAS/ Eternal Security in the same manner?

 

[JPPT1974]

Peter did deny Christ three times
But he asked Christ for forgiveness
As well as acknowledged Him as Savior & Lord
Peter went to become a great disciple!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree on both points and point to the OP regarding refutation of your first assertion. As for the second assertion that no such thing existed in the early church, Peter is the prime example of not losing one's salvation despite perpetrating quite possibly the greatest sin Christ experienced. Peter denied Christ 3 times, in His presence, yet nothing is said about his losing his salvation. Another issue is that no one in Scripture is said to be saved twice. The adoption is irreversible. If it is reversible, then Paul was incorrect in his use of the references to adoption to the Romans, because Roman adoption was irreversible irregardless of what the adopting father later decided. Did Paul incorrectly use this analogy in his writing of Romans?

I have gone through and noted about many OSNAS Scriptures and why they don't support that stance. Can someone that is OSNAS go through and show how the ones I listed that support OSAS/ Eternal Security in the same manner?

There are no verses in the Bible that “overtly” (a very poor choice of words on your part) or otherwise state, teach, or imply that one cannot be separated from God once he has accepted Christ as his Lord and savior. The obvious proof of this statement is that the doctrine of OSAS was first introduced in the 16th century as an outgrowth of an incorrect understanding of the sovereignty of God. If there was even one verse in the Bible that explicitly taught OSAS, it would not have taken 1500 years for someone to find it. And if there was even one verse in the Bible that could even be reasonably interpreted to teach OSAS, it would not have taken 1500 years for someone to find it. And for 1500 years, the Church universally taught conditional rather than eternal security, and the large majority of the Church has continued down to this day to teach conditional security because there are many scriptures in the Bible that explicitly teach it. And the obvious proof of this statement is the fact that hundreds of verses were consistently and universally understood for 1500 years to teach conditional security. Indeed, there are VERY FEW doctrines that are so clearly and explicitly taught in the Bible that they were clearly and universally understood by everyone.

The doctrine of OSAS is a most pernicious and dangerous doctrine because it fatally undermines the doctrine of inspiration. Indeed, if the doctrine of OSAS is true, the Bible is so very poorly worded that NO ONE was able to understand the doctrine of salvation for 1500 years, proving that it could not possibly be the inspired word of God.

Every verse in the Bible that is alleged to teach OSAS can be shown through careful exegesis of the Biblical text to teach something very different.

Peter did not loose his salvation when he denied Jesus because he was not yet saved. No one in the Bible is said to be saved twice because no one can be saved twice. Did Paul incorrectly use his analogy in his writing of Romans? Of course not; God does not break His promises or His commitments to us. And no one is punished by God for accepting Jesus Christ as his savior, stripped of his free will, and chained or hogtied to Jesus.

Pick any verse in the New Testament that you believe teaches OSAS and I will show you through careful exegesis of the Greek text that it does NOT teach OSAS.

 

[daveleau]

Your statement that one cannot be saved twice is correct. I believe that those that turn away were never with us (1 John 2:19) rather than backsliders. But, the OSNAS doctrine teaches a coming home of the lost previous believer, which is the big issue I have.

The biggest OSAS verses are:
Phil 1:6
Rom 11:29
1 Pet 1:3- 5

If we become new creatures through the death of our old selves, then how can we then return. This is why 1 John 2:19 is such an important verse here. The ones that turn away were never new creatures.

Christians are justified through faith (irreversible) and sanctified for the work of God. We can never do that work perfectly, but we are called to work. At what point is that inproper work on our part going to cost us our salvation?

If one is covered by the blood of Christ, how can that be reversed? What limits do we put on Christ's sacrifice by saying we can be bad enough to lose its blessing?