OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints, are they the same?

[Seaioth]

Greetings saints,
Recently I have been talking with some other “brethren” about what I believe to be misperceptions regarding what ultimately sustains our faith, man or God, leading to the attack on OSAS, and pressing for Conditional Security, what is most likely a quasi-Arminian viewpoint; there are points of agreement and disagreements regarding the 5th point. I believe that the passages sited, do not suggest that the elect can reject God and be self-condemned to hell. Perhaps a possibility the Conditional Security’s viewpoint of OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints is one that falls to the “middle ground” in that:
1) It doesn’t like seeing unfruitful Christians
2) Pushes the belief that man must maintain/earn their salvation through bearing good fruit

"God chooses us, not because we believe, but so we may believe"--Augustine of Hippo(354-430AD)

If God choose us then all His chosen will inevitably believe. Though election and salvation be different.

In contrast of “Free-grace theology/ easy believism”
Thinking that all we need to do is accept Christ as God, as a ticket to heaven and life the life whatever life we want…
I am asking for insight on this matter, as I am not an expert at exegesis, however hold some convictions regarding this matter, that requires further clarification and investigation through the scriptures.
Grace and peace to you from God
Salvation is maintained through God’s grace not man’s ability to respond to God’s efficacious call;
Yet a true believer (regardless of maturity level) we recognize Christ as Lord of their life.

The Conditional Security of Believers
The Misunderstanding of the so-called, The False Doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved" causing people to reject the 5th point of TULIP, in sincere error.
The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" suggests that the Christian, once truly saved, can never do anything to forfeit his salvation and be finally lost in hell. This belief means that Christians have an unconditional security in Christ. They suggest that any person who appears to be a Christian and falls away was never truly converted in the first place. They believe that Christians do sin; but when they sin, they are punished in this life and forfeit privileges in heaven but not entrance into heaven.

Counterpoint:
Is it not unbiblical to say that one must maintain one’s salvation via good works? Is this not the same as salvation by works, rather in this case it is maintaining your salvation through your works, rather than through the grace and righteousness of Christ?
Often Perseverance of the Saints is often considered synonymous to that of OSAS. If one does fall and profane the spirit several conditions arise:
They
1) never were saved to begin with, (had a false assurance of salvation)
2) are reprobate

Following 1 John 3:9 one who sins is of the devil. Rather it is talking about those that habitually sin.

However the Doctrine of Sinless Perfection is a false doctrine, therefore one must deny that one needs to do anything to maintain salvation, as good works is a natural occurrence to the truly regenerate.
This may or may not open another can of worms, but one cannot be a True Believer if they accept Christ as Savior but not Lord. They are inseparable, and thus the so called “controversy” Of Lordship Salvation is nill.


The Conditional Security of the Believer
The Scriptures teach that God's grace and favor continue to be abundantly given to the believer who continues to keep faith and to keep doing God's will from the heart. The issue is not, "can God save sinners?" He can and does! Nor is the issue, "What is the outcome of those who never believe?" They are condemned (John 3:18).
Agreed! Seems as though we are arguing semantics here…
The issue is "What will happen to the born again Christian who willingly turns his back on God and forsakes Him by turning to a life of neglect and sin?" Unconditional security suggests that he is still saved; conditional security says that he is lost.
One that is elect before the foundation of the world by God, God doesn’t choose to condemn them based on their actions, but instead will discipline His children to come back to repentance. If they “resist God’s grace” then they are simply passed over by God. They do not “lose” the salvation that God gave them, but rather they never had it in the first place

God does not “dangle a carrot upon a person” he never intended to save, as we know God’s desire is for all man to come to repentance and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
If conditional security is taught in the Scriptures, then one would expect conditional statements in the Scriptures regarding salvation. A conditional statement has a qualification to it. It may use the word "if" such as in John 8:31; or it may use a relative clause describing the kind of person who meets the qualification, i.e., "he that" as in Mark 16:16. The problem with the doctrine of unconditional security is that it ignores the conditional, qualifying statements in Scripture about whom the grace of God saves:
Passages That Teach Conditional Security of Christians
• John 8:31,32 "if you abide (continue, remain) in my word"
Lordship salvation.. or salvation itself. One that does not abide in God’s word is not truly regenerate. He does not know Christ as Lord and Savior of their life. Nonlordship Salvationists, which would include a great majority of professors of Christ, would argue that one will recognize Christ as Lord upon spiritual maturity and make an active situation. That one can accept Christ, by making a profession and that profession will sustain their salvation. This is certainly not the case…
Deniers of the Perseverance of Saints, or Perseverance of the Saints through God’s grace, fall somewhat inbetween these two points and blindly attack those that agree that you must abide in good works, by that salvation has already be obtained through the grace of God.

Salvation is both an event and a ongoing process of sanctification.
• John 8:51 "if anyone keeps my word"
• John 15:2,6,10 "if anyone does not abide. . .if you keep my commandments"
• Rom. 8:12,13 "if living to the flesh, you must die"
• 1 Cor. 15:1,2 "if you hold fast the word"
• Gal. 5:1-4 "if you receive circumcision (go back to the Law)"
• Gal. 6:7-9 "if we do not grow weary"
• Col. 1:21-23 "if you continue"
• Heb. 3:12-14 "if we hold fast"
• Heb. 10:26-31 "if we go on sinning willfully, . . .no more sacrifice for sins"
• 10:29 "he who has trampled the Son of God, treated blood as unholy, insulted the Spirit"
• Heb. 10:35-39 "if he shrinks back"
• 2 Pet. 1:5-11 "if these qualities are yours, you will never stumble"
These all are obedience, which good fruits are the mark of a true believer. It is not one that is frantically trying to maintain their salvation via good works. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but know that God’s grace is what sustains us, and not our own efforts. To not stumble does not mean to lose salvation, it is to not stumble, not fall into condemnation. This is to increase in attributes of the faith so that you will not be unfruitful for God’s kingdom, and grow in the process of sanctification for God’s glory. Using this as a maintenance of salvation through works, or saying obedience is what sustains faith, shows it as maintaing salvation through works, which is NOT the case.
This ultimately confuses progressive sanctification instead as progressive salvation.

• 2 Pet. 2:20-22 "if he is entangled and overcome, then the last state is worse than the first" (these are Christians 2 Pet. 1:3,4)
• 1 John 1:6,7 "if we walk in the light"
• 1 John 1:9 "if we confess our sins"
• 1 John 2:24,25 "if (what you heard from the beginning) remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father."
If there were only one Scriptural condition in this list, that would be enough to show that our salvation is conditional. Some Warning and Exhortations:1 Cor. 9:24-27 "make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize"
1 Cor. 10:1-12 "if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"

Warning against our pride which God hates and puffs up our mind. We must constantly be renewed through the Word, to follow and not stray from the path of ineffectiveness. To not be asleep, to not waste our life, and to make every effort to grow in holiness for reflection of the glory of Christ Jesus.
Gal. 5:19-21 Paul's warning to Christians about works of the flesh that might keep them from entering the kingdom of heaven.
Those that had not accepted Christ yet but are “seeking” as some many contest, though no one seeks after God, not one..
Rev. 2:10 "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life"The Present Tense of Salvation

John 5:24 "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." This passage observes the basic truth that the believer has eternal life and does not consider the person who stops believing. Note John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death." The whole truth blends both passages rather than ignoring either. John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." One has eternal life as long as he believes and obeys.
Can a person stop believing? Psa. 106:12 "they believed His words"
106:13 "they quickly forgot His works"
106:21 "they forgot God their Savior"
106:24 "they did not believe His word"
Luke 8:11-13 "they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away"
1 Tim. 1:19,20 "made shipwreck of the faith"
1 Tim. 4:1 "fall away from the faith"
1 Tim. 5:12 "cast off the faith"
2 Tim. 2:18 "upset (overthrow) the faith of some"
Heb. 3:12 "brethren, . . .in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from living God."
Objections:
"No one can separate us from the hand or the love of God." Two precious promises are found in John 10:27-29 and Rom. 8:35-39, which state that nothing is able to separate us from God. These verses, however, do not take into account that a person may decide to separate himself from God. Jude 21 advises us to "keep yourselves in the love of God"; and John 15:9,10 teaches that we must abide in his love. No one can separate us from God, but we are able to forsake Him.
The fundamental question for those that advocate the conditional salvation of believers, albeit the unforgivable sin, is to ask would be who saves ultimately, man’s response to God’s call, or God’s election, Do we chose to accept Christ to be saved, or does God choose us?
We cannot accept God and then reject God. God elects. To live a fruitful life for Christ would must obey all the passages in process for their sanctification.
Christians can fall away!"If a Christian falls, they were never converted in the first place."
Professed Christians can fall away… those secure in their salvation through God’s election (the regenerate) can not. They can however stumble severely.
But note Heb. 6:4-6. Those who fell away were at one time saved! They were "once enlightened" (cf. Heb. 10:32; Col. 1:13,14);
Herbrews 6 is a hypothetical situation…

"tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38,39); tasted the good word, and tasted the powers of the age to come." These people willfully fell away from God by rejecting Jesus Christ. It was impossible to renew them to repentance because they did not want to repent (Heb. 10:26-29). God is speaking of these "cases" and not all cases; some are brought to repentance (Acts 8:14-24). Notice also Gal. 5:1-4 speaks of those who fall from grace as having been "severed" from Christ. One cannot be cut off from that which one has never been united. In 2 Pet. 2:20-22, we have some who have escaped the defilement of the world returning to sin. One can only escape that defilement through the blood of Jesus. Speaking of a washed sow is meaningless unless they were washed clean from sin.

 

[GLJCA]

The issue is "What will happen to the born again Christian who willingly turns his back on God and forsakes Him by turning to a life of neglect and sin?" Unconditional security suggests that he is still saved; conditional security says that he is lost.
One that is elect before the foundation of the world by God, God doesn’t choose to condemn them based on their actions, but instead will discipline His children to come back to repentance. If they “resist God’s grace” then they are simply passed over by God. They do not “lose” the salvation that God gave them, but rather they never had it in the first place

I would like to ask, what is the biblical definition of “Saved”? Is it not to be "delivered" from sin, the world, the devil, and possibly eternal destruction? Sadly many Christians today have departed from the Historic Reformed position and have clouded the meaning of Covenant. They have gradually moved over to a Baptistic position defined largely by OSAS standards. They have changed the definition to mean only, "deliverance from eternal destruction". I believe that is only part of the equation to which some will and some will not be ordained. On the other hand "all" that are in Covenant with God are delivered from the world, the devil, and have the privilege of having their sins forgiven them.

I believe that salvation takes place when God takes one out of the world and placed him into His covenant family? All of God’s blessings and promises were given to him at that time, but so were the responsibilities of covenant membership. A look into the OT shows us that the OT family of God were responsible to fear God and keep His commandments. Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
ECC 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? These were the requirements of God to His chosen people. When they fell away He disciplined them and brought them back to Himself or if He chose to, He killed them. The children of Israel leaving Egypt present a beautiful picture of salvation. Just as we were delivered from slavery to sin, God delivered them from the bondage of slavery to Egypt. God protected them from the enemy at the Red Sea. He gave them water from the rock, which was Christ. (1 Cor 10:4) He gave them manna in the wilderness, which was a shadow of the bread of life, Christ (John 6:48-51). Yet after all that they died in the wilderness in unbelief and God said that they would not enter into His rest. (Heb 3:11) These were God’s covenant chosen people, just as we are, yet they died and went to Hell. Were they saved in the scriptural definition of the word? I believe they were. Those who were in the covenant were safe as long as they feared and obeyed God but when they fell into sin and unbelief they were either disciplined or killed by God. Those who were killed went to Hell.



In the NT we see the same warnings given to the Church that God gave to the OT covenant people.

1 Cor 15:1-2

Rom 11:20

Heb 2:2-3

Heb.4:1-3



To their detriment, the OSAS and many other Christians, largely ignore these warnings. God still requires His covenant people today to fear Him, do justly, walk humbly, and love mercy. Those ordained to eternal life will do those things and live, those who aren’t ordained to eternal life will not and die in their sins, whether they are covenant members or not.



GLJCA

 

[michaelmonfre]

Osas And Perseverance Of The Saints Are Two Different Things.

The Arminians Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation Because The Despise The Doctrine Of Osas Which In Antinomian. Osas Implies You Can Sin And Sin And Sin And Still Be Saved. I Heard This In My Church At The Assemblies Of God In Spokane.

The Words "eternal Security" Can Be Applied To Osas Or Perseverance Of The Saints Depending On The Person's Views.

I Do Not Like Osas. I Would Rather Be An Arminian Who Says If You Don't Persevere Then You Lose Your Salvation. Thank God True Saints Do Persevere As Scripture Indicates.

 

[Bob Moore]

Many people don't like the idea of OSAS, but that is what the Bible says. Not in so many words, but by multiple statements such as:

John 10:28-29, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Ephesians 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

John 18:9, that the word might be fulfilled which he spake, Of those whom thou hast given me I lost not one.

Here are excerpts from the Westminster Confession that set out the two doctrines in exqusite detail. I suggest that anyone who has a problem with either or both of these doctrines take the time to study the references cited, since the doctrines are not the invention of men, but of God.

CHAPTER X
Of Effectual Calling
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

Rom. viii. 30; Rom. xi. 7; Eph. i. 10, 11; 2 Thess. ii. 13, 14; 2 Cor. iii. 3, 6; Rom. viii. 2; Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; 2 Tim. i. 9, 10; Acts xxvi. 18; 1 Cor. ii. 10, 12; Eph. i. 17, 18; Ezek. xxxvi. 26; Ezek. xi. 19; Phil. ii. 13; Deut. xxx. 6; Ezek. xxxvi. 27; Eph. i. 19; John vi. 44, 45; Cant. i. 4; Ps. cx. 3; John vi. 37; Rom. vi. 16, 17, 18.

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

2 Tim. i. 9; ***. iii. 4, 5; Eph. ii. 4, 5, 8. 9; Rom. ix. 11, 1 Cor. ii. 14; Rom. viii. 7; Eph. ii. 5, John vi. 37; Ezek. xxxvi. 27; John v. 25.

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

Luke xviii. 15, 16, and Acts ii. 38, 39 and John iii. 3, 5 and 1 John v. 12 and Rom. viii. 9 compared; John iii. 8; 1 John v. 12; Acts iv. 12.

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

Matt. xxii. 14; Matt. vii. 22; Matt. xiii. 20, 21; Heb. vi. 4, 5; John vi. 64, 65, 66; John viii. 24; Acts iv. 12; John xiv. 6; Eph. ii. 12; John iv. 22; John xvii. 3; 2 John ver. 9, 10, 11; 1 Cor. xvi 22; Gal. i. 6, 7, 8.


CHAPTER XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Phil. i. 6; 2 Pet. i. 10; John x. 28, 29; 1 John iii. 9; I Pet. i. 5, 9.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

2 Tim. ii. 18, 19; Jer. xxxi. 3; Heb. x. 10, 14; Heb. xiii. 20, 21; Heb. ix. 12, 13, 14, 15; Rom viii. 33 to the end; John xvii. 11, 24; Luke xxii. 32; Heb. vii. 25; John xiv. 16 17; 1 John ii. 27; 1 John iii. 9; Jer. xxxii. 40; John x. 28; 2 Thess. iii. 3; 1 John ii. 19.

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Matt. xxvi. 70, 72, 74; Ps. li. title and verse 14; Isa. lxiv. 5, 7, 9; 2 Sam. xi. 27; Eph. iv. 30; Ps. li. 8, 10, 12; Rev. ii. 4; Cant. v. 2, 3, 4, 6; Isa. lxiii. 17; Mark vi. 52; Mark xvi. 14; Ps. xxxii. 3, 4; Ps. li. 8; 2 Sam. xii. 14; Ps. lxxxix. 31, 32; 1 Cor. xi. 32.

 

[AndOne]

Thanks for the clarification, Bob! I was shocked to see someone with a calvinist tag make the semi-pelagian statement: "All of God’s blessings and promises were given to him at that time, but so were the responsibilities of covenant membership."

Don't get me wrong - I do believe that the elect who is willingly sinning will be dealt with and punished - but it is never eternal destruction - otherwise the person in question would not be of the elect!

 

[Bob Moore]

Thanks for the clarification, Bob! I was shocked to see someone with a calvinist tag make the semi-pelagian statement: "All of God’s blessings and promises were given to him at that time, but so were the responsibilities of covenant membership."

Now and then someone will assume a tag just for the purpose of posting in a specific forum. I am not saying that is the case here because I have no idea. Or it could be that there is a lack of doctrinal knowledge, or personal disagreement with the doctrines.

Don't get me wrong - I do believe that the elect who is willingly sinning will be dealt with and punished - but it is never eternal destruction - otherwise the person in question would not be of the elect!

That is exactly right. Proverbs 3:12, For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. And,

Hebrews 12:5-8, and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.

 

[JoeRe4mer]

I really feel that OSAS is a overly simplistic way to view perserverance of the saints. I also feel that it leads to a kind of easybelivism. The Reformed doctrine of perserverace seems much more detailed and biblical. Alot of people dont really see a differnce between the 2 but in their presentation and application there is a BIG difference. Also alot of people that belive OSAS reject election and predestination which are connected to the reformed view of persreverance of the saint's. So the two views are differnt on many key issue's.

 

[heymikey80]

Calvinistic Perseverance is a view of "once-saved-always-saved"; that once a person has really been justified by God, God will move him to persevere in this life. However, OSAS has become something of a magic-mantra of "easy-believism" -- although more often this version is tossed out as a burning strawman against Calvinistic believers.

Salvation means forever. "If we deny Him, He will deny us. If we are faithless, He will remain faithful -- for He cannot deny Himself." But how God does that in His people is through Perseverance, not through Lazinance .

 

[frumanchu]

Bump for subscription and later reply

 

[ReformedAnglican]

OSAS is stems from Baptist preaching that has dominated in the States and has infiltrated the UK that once you choose Christ you are saved no matter what, some go so far as to say that you can have an unbelieveing believer. However the Calvinist (aka Biblical ) doctrine of perseverence of the saints is that once God has given you faith he will keep you through sanctification.

 

[Bob Moore]

Calvinistic Perseverance is a view of "once-saved-always-saved"; that once a person has really been justified by God, God will move him to persevere in this life. However, OSAS has become something of a magic-mantra of "easy-believism" -- although more often this version is tossed out as a burning strawman against Calvinistic believers.

That's right. In my experience those who dump on OSAS are simply clueless. Too many churches feed only milk and carefully avoid serving meat.

Salvation means forever.

Yes it does.

"If we deny Him, He will deny us. If we are faithless, He will remain faithful -- for He cannot deny Himself." But how God does that in His people is through Perseverance, not through Lazinance .

I think a little clarification is in order here. The passage cited, 2 Timothy 2:12, is sometimes used to deny the doctrine of OSAS, but only by those who do not, or will not, grasp the essentials. Here is an explanation that should be helpfull in understanding the passage:

if we deny him, he also will deny us: "there is a denying of Christ in words; so it is denied by the Jews that Christ is come in the flesh, and that Jesus is the Messiah; and some that have bore the Christian name, though very unworthily, have denied his true deity, his real humanity, proper sonship, and the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, for pardon, justification, and atonement: and there is a denying of him in works; so some that profess to know him, and do own him in his person and offices, yet in works deny him; their conversation is not becoming their profession of him; they have the form of godliness, but deny the power of it: there is a secret and silent denying of him, when men are ashamed of him, and do not confess him; and there is an open denying of him, by such who set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh throughout the earth; there is a partial denying of Christ, which was Peter's case, though his faith in him, and love to him, were not lost; and there is a total denying of him, a thorough apostasy, and from which there is no recovery; and if there be any such apostates among those who have named the name of Christ, he will deny them, he will not own them for his another day; he will set them at his left hand; he will declare he knows them not, and will banish them from his presence for evermore. This is another branch of the faithful saying; this will certainly be the case; Christ himself has said it, Mat_10:33." {John Gill}

 

[BlackSaab52]

*deletes what I originally put*

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints, are they the same?

The simple answer is NO they are not the same thing. I once believed they were but I found in my discussions with many Baptists (Arminians), and continued study of Reformed thought that I was mistaken in my believe and they are not the same thing at all.

There is a partial truth in OSAS but it is only a partial truth. Perseverance of the Saints (PS) is the biblical reality and prevents the tendency toward easy believism that is so overwhelmingly visable among our OSAS believing Baptist brethren.

I think the men at the Council of Dort were wise to use Perseverance. All who are elect unto eternal life WILL persever in the Faith. All who answer to an alter call during a Baptist Revival meeting will not, and many of them will be shocked that they had to persevere when they are judged on the last day and found wanting.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[AndOne]

I think the men at the Council of Dort were wise to use Perseverance. All who are elect unto eternal life WILL persever in the Faith. All who answer to an alter call during a Baptist Revival meeting will not, and many of them will be shocked that they had to persevere when they are judged on the last day and found wanting.

Hi Kennith -

"they had to persever.." implies works. I disagree with the statment. So does Dort:

FIFTH HEAD OF DOCTRINE
THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

REJECTION OF ERRORS

2. Error:

God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient strength to persevere, and is ready to preserve this in him if he will do his duty. But even with all those things in place which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith, it still always depends on the decision of man's will whether he will persevere or not.
Refutation:

This idea contains outright Pelagianism. While it wants to make men free, it makes them robbers of God's honour. It conflicts with the consistent teaching of the gospel, which takes from man all cause for boasting, and ascribes all the praise for this benefit to the grace of God alone. It is also contrary to the testimony of the apostle: It is God who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor 1:8.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Behe's boy,

I think you are mistaken in how you have understood my post and what was said at the Council of Dort on perseverance. I will try to explain why below. Thanks for your time in hearing me out on this.

Let me quote the Canons of Dort as well. I whole heartily agree with the Canon's recital of errors about false teachings of perseverance under the title “Rejection of Errors.”


I will discuss those shortly, but first lets look at what the Synod said about perseverance before it reaches the errors section.

FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 16. Those in whom a living faith in Christ, and assured confidence of soul, peace of conscience, an earnest endeavor after filial obedience, a glorying in God through Christ, is not as yet strongly felt, and who nevertheless make use of the means which God has appointed for working these graces in us, ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to rank themselves among the reprobate, but diligently to persevere in the use of means, and with ardent desires devoutly and humble to wait for a season of richer grace…


FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 3. By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.



FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 4. Although the weakness of the flesh cannot prevail against the power of God, who confirms and preserves true believers in a state of grace, yet converts are not always so influenced and actuated by the Spirit of God as not in some particular instances sinfully to deviate from the guidance of divine grace, so as to be seduced by and to comply with the lusts of the flesh; they must, therefore, be constant in watching and prayer, that they may not be led into temptation. When these are great and heinous sins by the flesh, the world, and Satan, but sometimes by the righteous permission of God actually are drawn into these evils. This, the lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 7. For in the first place, in these falls He preserves in them the incorruptible seed of regeneration from perishing or being totally lost; and again, by His Word and Spirit He certainly and effectually renews them to repentance, to a sincere and godly sorrow for their sins, that they may seek and obtain remission in the blood of the Mediator, may again experience the favor of a reconciled God, through faith adore His mercies, and henceforward more diligently work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 9. Of this preservation of the elect to salvation and of their perseverance in the faith, true believers themselves may and do obtain assurance according to the measure of their faith, whereby they surely believe that they are and ever will continue true and living members of the Church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and life eternal.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 11. The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 12. This certainty of perseverance, however, is so far from exciting in believers a spirit of pride, or of rendering them carnally secure, that on the contrary it is the real source of humility, filial reverence, true piety, patience in every tribulation, fervent prayers, constancy in suffering and in confessing the truth, and of solid rejoicing in God; so that the consideration of this benefit should serve as an incentive to the serious and constant practice of gratitude and good works, as appears from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 13. Neither does renewed confidence of persevering produce licentiousness or a disregard of piety in those who are recovered from backsliding; but it renders them much more careful and solicitous to continue in the ways of the Lord, which He has ordained, that they who walk therein may keep the assurance of persevering; lest, on account of their abuse of His fatherly kindness, God should turn away His gracious countenance from them (to behold which is to the godly dearer than life, and the withdrawal of which is more bitter than death) and they in consequence thereof should fall into more grievous torments of conscience.

FIFTH HEAD: ARTICLE 14. And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments.

Christians must persevere in the faith. Is this an act of man's will? No. It is God working in us both to will and the to do His good pleasure. And those who are elect unto eternal life will "do" His good pleasure in this life. It is not merit. We earn nothing. We preserve nothing. God preserves us and makes His elect to persevere.

I think that is simple. Calvin certainly taught this, as have countless Reformed Christians since him. There is no works righteousness here. It is all of Grace, but God gives His elect a grace that makes them to persevere until the end. His elect will run the race to the finish. Those who fall out and wit at the side of the road were not elect unto etrnal life, even though they may have benefitted from being Covenant members of in this life and ar cut off for lacking faith.

Now, lets look at the errors (on this subject) condemned at the Synod of Dort.

FIFTH HEAD: PARAGRAPH 1. Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.

Did I say that? Certainly not. I did say that we must persevere, and we certainly must, the Reformed men at Dort certainly believed that as well, but they did not believe that men persevere by their own free will, but by God's grace.

This is God's work. His elect will persevere. Remember what I said above "Perseverance of the Saints (PS) is the biblical reality and prevents the tendency toward easy believism that is so overwhelmingly visable among our OSAS believing Baptist brethren..." and "All who are elect unto eternal life WILL persever in the Faith. All who answer to an alter call during a Baptist Revival meeting will not. " All who are elect persevere by God's grace and His Spirit working in them, but they do persevere.

Let's look at the next error mentioned at trent, which is the one that you quote in your post:
FIFTH HEAD: PARAGRAPH 2. Who teach: That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty; but that, though all though which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God will use to preserve faith are made us of, even then it ever depends on the pleasure of the will whether it will persevere or not.

Did I say that it depends on man's will as to whether he will persevere? No. I said that all who are elect unto eternal life will persevere. Again this is because it is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.

With all that said the believer MUST persevere in the faith. Does he do it of "free will?" No. He does it because of Grace, as we read above in the Canons of the Council of Dort, but he does persevere.

We are called to repent and believe. All who are elected to eternal life actually do repent and believe. Does that make repentence and belief works because they are actively preformed by Christians? No. It is by Grace that we repent and believe. BUT Repent and believe we must. Without Repentence and believing there is no salvation. But this fact the not make it less and act of Grace. God woeks in us both to will (i.e. repent and believe) and to do (good works which is part of perseverance. But it is still His work and not ours.

OSAS is a ticket to easy believism that is anathema to historic Reformed thought.

I wrote on this subject some time back on my blog. I have a blog titled Christians and Perseverance that my clarify things a bit more. I also brush this subject on another blog: Keep His Commandments and for how I understand Covenant (which I think is VERY Reformed) see: Covenant Privilege.

I hope you can see the important difference between the Arminian Baptist teaching of OSAS, and the historic Reformed teaching of PS.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[AndOne]

Hi Kenneth -

I am glad you clarified your position - that the ability to persevere is God's work and not ours. That is all that OSAS is.

The statement you made origonally is very misleading though - by claiming that Baptists will find out "they had to persevere." To me it implies the work is theirs to do and according to their own will.

The real concern that they will have - is that they were not of the elect - not that they HAD to persevere. Hence - the first head of error...

Also - I disagree with your statement that OSAS is anathama to historic Reformed thought. It is actually Historic Reformed thought to the core. So is "easy Beleivism!" It is precisely that - because it is God who provides the Grace and the ability to persevere. When its He who does it all - and I who do nothing - that's pretty darn easy! And that is what reformers such as Luther and Calvin taught. As I look at the Canons of Dort - there is nothing there that is hard or burdensome...

This is sticky territory - and I think its wrong to imply that the "saved" need to start "mainintaining" their salvation. The saved need to start looking at how their lives can glorify God in response to the grace that is theirs to keep forever.

To me there is no Arminian Position on OSAS. An Arminian who believes in OSAS is one who does not fully understand grace - and by that I mean the other points in TULIP. I'm sure that you have spoken to many an "Armininian Baptist" on this position - as I have. The smart ones - when confronted with God's grace will either have to reject Perseverence or accept all of TULIP. Those who are in the middle - are too pridefull (in my opinion) to admit that their theology if flawed. Quite frankly someone who believes in Perseverence but none of the rest of TULIP really isn't a true Arminian. I'm not sure how they should be categorized - but Arminian doesn't fit the bill. They probably fall more under the bill of Dispensational Baptist - but of course we know there are many of those who adhere to all of TULIP too. Categorization and classification of belief can be tough - and maybe we should avoid - I don't know.

The bottom line - Once You Are Saved - you'r Always Saved. There is nothing in that statement that runs contrary to the Canons of Dort or Reformed Thought.

 

[Bob Moore]

Just so you know. I put a post here earlier today that did appear, but now does not. No explanation given.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Behe's Boy,

I don't think we are yet on the exact same page, though we are getting closer.

I hope you will let me explain what I mean. The Scriptures very clearly teach that those who are elect unto eternal life will not loose salvation and they can not do so. There are a number of Scriptures that clearly teach these verses. Calvinists and our non-Calvinists Baptists brethren know what they are.

There are also many warnings in the New Testament written to the churches about falling away or being cut off etc… Our Arminian friends are very familiar with all of these verses. I have found that when our non-Calvinistic Baptist brethren and Arminians discuss this issue they tend to play proof-text table tennis. (e.g. both sides throw out their favourite Bible verses to defend their position while ignoring the verses produced by the other.)

I believe it is only the Reformed (Covenantal –not just a five pointer) Calvinist who can make sense of both sets of texts without contradiction or practicing Bible verse yoga techniques.

The Baptist, who holds to once saved always saved can not make sense of verses like:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Rom 11:21,22)


In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister...(Col. 1:22, 23)

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; (Heb 2:1-3)

Those are a small sampling of the verses I am speaking of. OSAS does not and can not account for those texts, but the Reformed view of “perseverance in light our understanding of “covenant” makes perfect sense o them. These verses where written to Christians not to “unbelievers.”

If our position can not incorporate “ALL of Scripture then we need to rethink some things. The Arminians can not make sense of the Baptists OSAS proof texts and the Baptists with their OSAS view can not deal with the Arminians set of proof texts. Covenant Theology deals with both and takes both sets of proof texts seriously. We don’t have to punt on either set as they must.

OSAS has played a part in todays “easy believism” and “antinomianism” that is so prevelant so many evangelical churches. The Reformed Doctrine of Perseverance is a hedge against both those problems, because we realise that Christians must persevere in the faith.

Yes it is God who, by grace, makes us to persevere, just as it is God who enables us to repent and believe. I don’t think anyone has a problem when we say “You must repent and believe” even when we know it is God working in us to do these things. Neither should we have a problem with the statement “You must persevere” because the Bible says that we must. Yes it is God who gives us the ability to do so. It is ALL of grace, but it is also something that Christs and the Apostles taught.

If you do not persevere in the end, it is true that you were not elect unto salvation, but this is true of believing also. We don’t therefore evangelise by saying “If you are elect you will believe.” No we call all men to repent and believe knowing that the Holy Spirit will save the elect by our faithfulness in proclaiming the Gospel. The same is true with Perseverance. We should teach it and call all in the Church to persevere and give them the warnings about Apostacy. God placed them (and there are a good number of them) in His Word for a reason. They are to be taught to His people.

I hope that is clear. Again I recommend the links to my blog that are in the earlier post.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Bob Moore]

I confidently expect Behe's boy to hit this one out of the park.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I confidently expect Behe's boy to hit this one out of the park.

That's ok. I have plenty of quotes from John Calvin's Commentaries on many of the "persevere" verses. They are in the batters box and in the dugout (since we are using baseball metaphors).

Coram Deo,
Kenith