Orthodoxy's Cyprianisms

[The Squalid Wanderer]

When speaking of Cyprianic ecclesiology, there are two main elements one usually thinks of, the first, and most prominent is concerning the nature of the Church, while the secondary aspect is the structure of his ecclesiology.

It was this secondary element which was the focus of my Cyprianic compromise, and for this, I would recommend reading the paper I wrote which posted in this forum and linked above.

The primary element of Cyprians ecclesiology basically declares that there is no salvation outside the Church.  Most everyone agrees with this statement, but in order to accomodate various practices, many have qualified it with various definitions of what being in the Church necessarily entails.

But what Cyprian meant was that if there was no salvation outside of the Church, then naturally the Holy Spirit could not be operating outside the Church as well, since the Holy Spirits operations are life giving.  And with the Holy Spirit operating solely within the domain of the Church, schismatic and heretical baptisms and other sacraments are empty of any salvific value.  Thus for Cyprian, to be baptized by a group outside the Church was to not be baptized at all, and all such who wished to enter the Church must be (re)baptized, since their first one was ineffectual.

Orthodox ecclesiology and sacramentology so far agree with Cyprian.  Where they differ is that Orthodoxy in general will not rebaptize those who have been baptized under the name of the Trinity, because they see Chrismation, which is required of even Roman Catholics, as having a vivifying effect upon the baptism they had previously received.  By this devise they maintain the Cyprianic denial of the effectivness of heretical and schismatic baptisms while not requiring rebaptism of those same individuals who later wish to enter the Orthodox Church.

As you can now see from this, a Roman Catholic could not share in the Eucharist because his baptism has not effectually brought him into the Church, and it will not until it has been animated by the Holy Spirit with the rite of Chrismation.

So while the lifting of the mutual excommunications has removed an impediment against reunion, it does not make reunion.

 

[isshinwhat]

Gotcha. So in the view of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Eucharist is "empty of any salvific value?"

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

Yes, because the sacraments are only effectual within the Church. Outside the Church there are no sacraments.

 

[isshinwhat]

From what I have read since we began this conversation, the consensus amongst the Orthodox leaders seems to be ". While no Orthodox Christian can say, with any surety, that there is no Grace in Rome, no one accepts more than a Roman Baptism. The Orthodox Church doesn't accept the Sacraments of the RCC as the same as the Holy Mysteries of its own. If it did, we could intercommune. The issues about baptism, marriage, and ordination can be very confusing, since there are Hierarchs who don't agree."


Honestly, the Orthodox seem kinda confused on what they actually believe about Baptism, Catholic priest converts, Catholic Eucharist, etc... The best term I have found while looking up the subject is, "The Orthodox Church is officially agnostic" in regards to Catholic Sacraments.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[The Squalid Wanderer]

think at first glance.

The Cyprianic element that I described is common to all Orthodox.  I have found no question regarding that point.  The questions come at the point of the mechanism I described to accomodate heterodox baptisms.  A few Orthodox do not accept such a mechanism and would (re)baptize even a Roman Catholic.  Most communions, including the three largest in the US, would accept such a mechanism and thus wouldn't require rebaptism.

Of course they would be agnostic about grace in Roman Catholicism, this is utterly in line with the Cyprianic element.  I should have explained that while God's normative operations occur only in the Church, God is not inhibited from extraordinary acts of grace, and thus it is impossible to guarantee the utter lack of grace in Roman Catholicism. One can say, however, that there is an utter lack of normative operations in Roman Catholicism from an Orthodox perspective.

This is plainly demonstrated in the fact that there are no Orthodox Churches in which you could go and receive communion.  This one demonstratable fact clearly illustrates the Orthodox position on Catholic sacraments.  They are not effectual, for if they were, you would be allowed to partake in communion.  Don't mistake the debate currently going on in Orthodoxy for equivocation on heterodoxical sacraments.  The actions of the Orthodox Church speak loud and clear on that point.