Orthodoxy and the innocent unbaptized

[truthseeker32]

Is there an official Orthodox teaching on the fate of those who die without culpability? (i.e. children, infants, mentally disabled) If so, could any of you direct me to the sources that speak to this matter?

 

[Dorothea]

Here's some info for you:

Will unbaptized children go to hell if they die?
No. The Orthodox Church does not believe that children are born guilty of Adam’s sin and that unless freed of that guilt through baptism and communion they will die without God’s mercy. Such a notion is pernicious both for its barbarism and for its distortion of God. Do we really think that God is so small that He is bound by our rites, the rites He has given us? God is sovereign, and He will have mercy on whom He has mercy and judgment on whom He has judgment (Romans 9:15).

We can talk about sin and guilt in three ways. First there is primordial sin, the sin of Adam. We understand this not in terms of inherited guilt, but in terms of a fallen world. Primordial sin introduced sickness, suffering, evil, and death into God’s perfect creation (1 John 5:19; Romans 5:12). We are born into Adam’s sin in that we are born into a fallen world. But without our participation, there is no guilt. Second, there is generational sin, which we see in terms of specific propensities to sin. A child of alcoholics, for example, will inherit not the guilt of his parents but the tendency to sin as they did, or other sins associated with this generational heritage. Again, we do not have to submit to this sinful heritage, we do not have to carry it on ourselves. Finally, there is personal sin, the stuff we do ourselves, whether as perpetuation of the general fallenness of this world, the generational fallenness of our parents or surroundings, or as the invention of sins of our own. A person becomes guilty when they personally sin. A child is not guilty until they make sin a personal decision, either consciously or unconsciously.

It is true that baptism is the washing away of sin, and one could say that it seems senseless to baptize a child if they have no inherited guilt to wash away. However, Christ’s sacrifice, in to which we are baptized, was a sacrifice of His whole life as a submission to God— “not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)—and His death on the Cross not only washed away our sins, but also destroyed death itself. When we are baptized we are baptized into His life and death (Romans 6:4), and we become co-beneficiaries of a life which finally brought God and man into a union of love and a harmony of will. The infant is initiated into that union. This initiation will include the forgiveness of their sins, but is not limited to that forgiveness. The life and death of Christ, which reverses the primordial, generational, and personal falleness of this world, is what the child enters through baptism.

Infant Baptism: What the Church Believes | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

 

[Kristos]

Is there an official Orthodox teaching on the fate of those who die without culpability? (i.e. children, infants, mentally disabled) If so, could any of you direct me to the sources that speak to this matter?

The council of Carthage, which was accepted at Trullo talks about this.

culpability has nothing to do with it. we are all sinners and therefore subject to death.

 

[truthseeker32]

The council of Carthage, which was accepted at Trullo talks about this.

culpability has nothing to do with it. we are all sinners and therefore subject to death.

More specifically, I am interested in official statements on the fate of unbaptized persons who are otherwise not guilty for personal sin.

 

[choirfiend]

We don't make make official statements on the fate of anyone. We recognize Christ present in His saints, but that's not quite the same thing. Judgment (and statements thereof) are left to God and His mercy.

 

[truthseeker32]

We don't make make official statements on the fate of anyone. We recognize Christ present in His saints, but that's not quite the same thing. Judgment (and statements thereof) are left to God and His mercy.

So the Orthodox position on this issue would be similar to thr Roman Catholic position, being "we aren't sure whether unbaptized infants will be saved, but we can hope they will be."?

 

[isshinwhat]

Original Sin and Orthodoxy: Reflections on Carthage | Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy

The canons of Carthage on Original Sin are canons CIX-CXVI...

It has pleased the Synod to decree that whosoever denies the little ones newly born from the wombs of their mothers when they are being baptized, or asserts that they are baptized for the remission of sins, but that they have inherited no propatorical sin from Adam obliging them to be purified in the bath of renaissance (whence it follows that in these persons the form of baptism for the remission of sins is not true, but is to be regarded as factitious), let him be anathema;

for no other meaning ought to be attached to what the Apostle has said, viz., “Sin entered the world through one human being [and death by sin*]” (Rom. 5:12), and thus it passed over into all human beings; wherefore all of them have sinned, than that which the Catholic Church diffused and spread abroad every where has ever understood those words to mean. For it is on account of this Canon of the faith that even the little ones too, who are as yet incapable of committing any sin of their own to render them guilty of any offense, are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what sin they inherited from the primordial birth may be purified in them through the process of renaissance.

- Greek Text

 

[ArmyMatt]

So the Orthodox position on this issue would be similar to thr Roman Catholic position, being "we aren't sure whether unbaptized infants will be saved, but we can hope they will be."?

kinda, but recognizing their purity (since they have not sinned), it's pretty safe to say that they are saved.

 

[choirfiend]

Kinda, but if an infant who has never rejected God would be rejected by God because of temporal timing of baptism or lack thereof, I wouldn't hold out much hope for any of us. We've never had a Limbo, or anything like that, drawing ourselves into a box, but that's because we have hope in Christ and who He shows us God is. I think we all personally believe they are with Christ in heaven; we just dont dogmatize it.

 

[Kristos]

kinda, but recognizing their purity (since they have not sinned), it's pretty safe to say that they are saved.

Saved from what if they have not sinned? This doesn't make much sense. It's pretty clear from scripture that all have sinned, so saying that someone is without sin needs some serious consideration.

 

[Kristos]

Kinda, but if an infant who has never rejected God would be rejected by God because of temporal timing of baptism or lack thereof, I wouldn't hold out much hope for any of us. We've never had a Limbo, or anything like that, drawing ourselves into a box, but that's because we have hope in Christ and who He shows us God is. I think we all personally believe they are with Christ in heaven; we just dont dogmatize it.

Limbo has been taught in the East as well...

 

[Lukaris]

Limbo has been taught in the East as well...

?????

Where???

OCA - Reflections in Christ - Lessons from Limbo


Neither purgatory nor limbo has found a place in traditional Orthodox teaching. (from the OCA article linked).

 

[Kristos]

More specifically, I am interested in official statements on the fate of unbaptized persons who are otherwise not guilty for personal sin.

You're not going to get much more official than an ecumenical council, but if you want to read more - Gregory Nyssa wrote a treatise on the subject which can be found in NPNF2-5 "On infants early death"

 

[snowpumpkin]

Saved from what if they have not sinned? This doesn't make much sense. It's pretty clear from scripture that all have sinned, so saying that someone is without sin needs some serious consideration.

Scripture does say that ALL have sinned; however, Orthodox Tradition accepts the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James, and thus teaches that Mary was sinless. Tradition makes Mary an exception to the scriptural "all have sinned."

If the church accepts an exception for Mary, don't you think exceptions can also be made for infants who have no sense of right or wrong, and no moral or ethical compass, and function purely on instinct?

 

[buzuxi02]

All were born with the fruit of our ancestors sin, which leads to death. The Theotokos and infants are free of personal sins but are still subject to the effects of that initial fall.

There's already an ongoing thread in monachos.net on this subject.


Also to correct the PJ does not say the Theotokos was sinless

 

[isshinwhat]

I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to.

OCA - Q &amp A - Sinlessness of Mary

“The Immaculate Conception and the Orthodox Church” (3) | Eirenikon

Hate to post and run but I'm taking the kids to watch a movie and I wanted to throw these out for discussion in addition to the one I posted on page one.

 

[buzuxi02]

Various Orthodox statements on this is not based on the innocence of the individual. Instead it's based on what virtues or sins has the person contributed to either gain rewards or to suffer loss. If a baby dies he suffers no punishment on the other hand it has not struggled to attain the virtues and thus can gain no reward.

For ST Gregory of Nyssa it's actually irrelevant to speak of being 'saved' as he believed in universal restoration. The premise of Orthodoxy is what state is there for one who has gained no reward, has suffered no loss, and is free of any wickedness.

 

[prodromos]

My father in-law died from lung cancer. When he was first diagnosed he began to under go treatment and the cancer went into recession. It was during his treatment that he had a dream where a handsome young man told him that he would not die yet, but that he would recover and live for a few more years and then he would pass away. The young man gave his name and identified himself as his brother in-law.
Now my wife has one aunt and no uncles so when my wife's father woke from the dream he told his wife and asked whether she had a brother. She explained that she had a brother who had died in the womd and that he would have been named just as the young man in his dream.

My father in-law did recover from the cancer, but a few years later it came back and took his life.
In those few years he went from being a nominal Orthodox who went to church for Pascha and Nativity, to never missing a single service, being the first one there and the last to leave. Though he had barely gone to church for much of his life, he had such a generous spirit and compassion for his fellow man that he quite literally gave the shirt off his own back if he saw someone in need. We believe God permitted the cancer for his salvation. The reason for the background is because the young man in his dream could have been a demon, but I believe because he became so fervent in his christian walk as a result of his illness and the vision, it was none other than the brother of my wife's mother.
I believe at least one of our Church Fathers declared that in heaven we will all be 33 years old, that is, the age of Christ Jesus when he died, rose and ascended into heaven, which would explain why someone who had died as an infant could appear to someone as a young man.
This is only my personal experience, it is not necessarily what is taught by the Church.

 

[Dorothea]

My father in-law died from lung cancer. When he was first diagnosed he began to under go treatment and the cancer went into recession. It was during his treatment that he had a dream where a handsome young man told him that he would not die yet, but that he would recover and live for a few more years and then he would pass away. The young man gave his name and identified himself as his brother in-law.
Now my wife has one aunt and no uncles so when my wife's father woke from the dream he told his wife and asked whether she had a brother. She explained that she had a brother who had died in the womd and that he would have been named just as the young man in his dream.

My father in-law did recover from the cancer, but a few years later it came back and took his life.
In those few years he went from being a nominal Orthodox who went to church for Pascha and Nativity, to never missing a single service, being the first one there and the last to leave. Though he had barely gone to church for much of his life, he had such a generous spirit and compassion for his fellow man that he quite literally gave the shirt off his own back if he saw someone in need. We believe God permitted the cancer for his salvation. The reason for the background is because the young man in his dream could have been a demon, but I believe because he became so fervent in his christian walk as a result of his illness and the vision, it was none other than the brother of my wife's mother.
I believe at least one of our Church Fathers declared that in heaven we will all be 33 years old, that is, the age of Christ Jesus when he died, rose and ascended into heaven, which would explain why someone who had died as an infant could appear to someone as a young man.
This is only my personal experience, it is not necessarily what is taught by the Church.

Glory to God! btw, wonderful to see you here, prodromos! What a wonderful story and life experience that your FIL had!

I have heard about the being 33 in heaven once before a few years ago. Fascinating. I have read that a baby would appear as an adult, and an elderly as their younger self.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have heard about the being 33 in heaven once before a few years ago. Fascinating. I have read that a baby would appear as an adult, and an elderly as their younger self.

I heard that too, that it is in the fullness of life. or as Fr Hopko says, no longer infantile or juvenile, and not yet senile. it's why Christ died and rose at 33.