Orthodoxy and Libertarianism

[gurneyhalleck1]

As a lifelong Catholic who stepped into Anglicanism for about 7 years, my observation has been that Catholics tend to be as Republican these days as Evangelicals. They both equate GOP with Christianity a lot. The Voter's Guide at a certain famous Catholic website/message board is very strict and specific about who to vote for and how to vote. It is large GOP in its direction.

I must compliment Orthodox Christians. While Republicans are probably the majority of Orthodox Americans these days, there are a lot of Independents, Libertarians, and Democrats....more variety than in Catholicism. I think Orthodoxy allows one a bit more latitude and room for common sense in political direction, permitting one to see things holistically rather than voting on one issue with guilt trips.

Interesting the variety....I think it's cool

 

[E.C.]

As a lifelong Catholic who stepped into Anglicanism for about 7 years, my observation has been that Catholics tend to be as Republican these days as Evangelicals. They both equate GOP with Christianity a lot. The Voter's Guide at a certain famous Catholic website/message board is very strict and specific about who to vote for and how to vote. It is large GOP in its direction.

Really? When I was Roman Catholic most of my fellow Papists were Democrats mostly for the social justice issues (welfare, etc).

I must compliment Orthodox Christians. While Republicans are probably the majority of Orthodox Americans these days, there are a lot of Independents, Libertarians, and Democrats....more variety than in Catholicism. I think Orthodoxy allows one a bit more latitude and room for common sense in political direction, permitting one to see things holistically rather than voting on one issue with guilt trips.

Interesting the variety....I think it's cool

Thanks!

Like I said in an earlier post: the OCA website has a page on the Church's stance on the two major political parties in this country. It basically says, "We like X about the Republicans, we like Y about the Democrats, now, go and vote your conscience if you choose to vote".

 

[MKJ]

Really? When I was Roman Catholic most of my fellow Papists were Democrats mostly for the social justice issues (welfare, etc).


Thanks!

Like I said in an earlier post: the OCA website has a page on the Church's stance on the two major political parties in this country. It basically says, "We like X about the Republicans, we like Y about the Democrats, now, go and vote your conscience if you choose to vote".

The last I heard, the majority of self-identified Catholics voted Democrat in the last election. But when you look at more "serious" Catholics, you start to see a lot of Republicans. They seem primarily motivated by the abortion issue, but along with that they have embraced a lot of other Republican values, including being pro-death penalty, and often even economically neo-liberal.

I find it a bit weird really. Catholics in Canada seem to be on a totally different page for the most part.

 

[JesusIsTheWay33]

The last I heard, the majority of self-identified Catholics voted Democrat in the last election. But when you look at more "serious" Catholics, you start to see a lot of Republicans. They seem primarily motivated by the abortion issue, but along with that they have embraced a lot of other Republican values, including being pro-death penalty, and often even economically neo-liberal.

Or even libertarian to the point of quasi-objectivism, which I find very odd. Particularly when people like George Wiegel insist that the Church is staunchly pro-capitalist (Quadragesimo Anno? What's that?...)

I find it a bit weird really. Catholics in Canada seem to be on a totally different page for the most part.

It's traditionally been the same in the UK, where Catholicism and the Labour movement have been closely associated. This has some reasonable historical foundation, though: Catholicism was largely associated with urban populations (as was Labour), the working class (in part through Irish immigration), and the joint concern for the welfare of the poor and social justice. Also, being very much not the Established Church, we couldn't very well align with a suspicious and often hostile establishment.

That's beginning to change a bit - though there has always been a wealthy, traditionalist, and politically conservative wing to the Church in the UK - partly because the Labour Party under Foot, Kinnock and Blair/Brown distanced itself from the Church a lot, and took on an actively progressivist agenda which was inimical to the Church's moral teachings. Though it still took about 20 years for the Church to even consider changing course a bit.

So to me, from that context, the idea that you can only be right-wing as a Christian seems a bit... odd.

 

[truthseeker32]

It all seems to hinge on abortion. I know a professor at my university who is a devout Catholic. He agrees with the Democratic Party on Social Justice, Economics, Education, Foreign Policy, and Environmentalism; but always votes Republican because they are "pro-life" apparently.

He wrongfully compared those who vote for Democrats as those who supported Hitler in Germany. I hope this is not a common mentality among Roman Catholics.

Speaking of abortion, what is the stance of the RCC and EOC on cultures where parents abort or kill their infants die because they do not have the means to care for them?

 

[gzt]

We are opposed even then.

 

[E.C.]

I gave up on voting via abortion long ago. It happened when I took a class on US elections and realized that no matter what stance the government takes or how easy/difficult they make it to have an abortion it is still going to happen no matter what. That and how Roe v. Wade was about anonymity and protecting the identity of those who do have an abortion and not about whether abortion is "legal" or not (a huge misconception among most).

Don't get me wrong here; I am very much pro-life and shall be until God calls me home. I just do not agree that it should be the "make or break" issue on election day.

 

[Protoevangel]

Speaking of abortion, what is the stance of the RCC and EOC on cultures where parents abort or kill their infants die because they do not have the means to care for them?

When do financial concerns make murder okay?

Can I kill my wife and kids because I lost my job and do not have the means to care for them anymore?

 

[S.ilvio]

It all seems to hinge on abortion. I know a professor at my university who is a devout Catholic. He agrees with the Democratic Party on Social Justice, Economics, Education, Foreign Policy, and Environmentalism; but always votes Republican because they are "pro-life" apparently.

He wrongfully compared those who vote for Democrats as those who supported Hitler in Germany. I hope this is not a common mentality among Roman Catholics.

Speaking of abortion, what is the stance of the RCC and EOC on cultures where parents abort or kill their infants die because they do not have the means to care for them?

Many RC's are Democrat voters aswell.

There is no justification for killing a child, born or unborn...

 

[Knee V]

I gave up on voting via abortion long ago. It happened when I took a class on US elections and realized that no matter what stance the government takes or how easy/difficult they make it to have an abortion it is still going to happen no matter what. That and how Roe v. Wade was about anonymity and protecting the identity of those who do have an abortion and not about whether abortion is "legal" or not (a huge misconception among most).

Don't get me wrong here; I am very much pro-life and shall be until God calls me home. I just do not agree that it should be the "make or break" issue on election day.

I tend to agree. I think that voting for a president based on a pro-life stance is mostly meaningless. We need to pay attention to whom we vote into office in our state legislatures, as well as our national congress - not just the president. That is where laws are passed and policy is made, especially on the state level.

I would also support a personhood amendment to the constitution (at least on the state level as a starting point). If those in the womb were persons protected by the law, abortion laws would be moot. I would like to see a move toward that.

 

[JesusIsTheWay33]

In the UK, at least, the chances of finding a pro-life candidate are slim to none at the best of times. So you more-or-less have to vote on another issue.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think the distinction you make is a good one. The Catholics who have a "Catholic Radio EWTN" bumper sticker, they're going to be hardcore Republicans nine times out of ten. The strict Catholics who 100% follow the catechism and use NFP and live and breathe Catholic media, you know, Meghan, our friends at "that other message board," they're 99% Catholic. They'll shout you down if you're a Dem. In my area, almost every Catholic is a Republican anyway because I live in Central California, one of the reddest of the red areas of the entire country. It's more conservative than Texas here, no joke.

Democrats in the Midwest who are in big union jobs like SEIU or UAW, etc. More ethnic Catholics like Mexican-Americans are usually democrat. are almost always Democrats. But the vast majority of the hardcore Catholics, they're GOPers.

I was a Republican for years until several things happened. Watching the "holy" free market capitalist private sector eat up $400,000 of my dad's retirement money with AG Edwards after 9-11 took place due to mismanagement thus making Social Security and the meagre $30,000 he had left after the financial tsunami his only source of income for the rest of his life. Also seeing all the people who are uninsured being told to just suck it up and die....watching the corporate fat cats and wealthy get unprecedented tax cuts for a decade now and yet STILL not hiring or giving jobs to anyone (with the Republicans low taxes are guarantees for job growth, funny how that hasn't worked at all for years now), seeing how Republicans have a drill baby drill attitude when we all saw how lovely the BP spill was for the Gulf folks down in Louisiana, etc...., the fearsome hatred for abortion and yet the passionate LOVE for the death penalty is interesting. The love for pro-life and yet the no-hesitation in the approach to just let someone with cancer and no health care eat it and die...

I'm also a teacher. Watching what the GOP in cahoots with Ted Kennedy did to our profession with No Child Left Behind, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], what a disaster. It has ruined our school system.

As a union rep for my school, I know the value of tenure, the value of collective bargaining, and the importance of representation, the workers' rights to fight for all we can get against "the man." We can thank unions for weekends, paid leave, maternity leave, bargaining, and so much else.

I'm also a fan of the environment, believe in global warming, etc. I believe in Medicare and Social Security and the safety nets. I just think they need reform and strict devotion, not privatization and such.

I also watched us get into two wars--one was absolute nonsense the other one was somewhat justified but has been overextended and is a losing proposition. We were lied to, exploited and tortured others, and it has yielded little but debt, death, and mayhem.

So I tend to vote Democrat. I pinch my nose doing so with many of these pro-choicers as I'm 100% pro-life and opposed to gay marriage and all this social morality tinkering. But I'm far more left than right on many issues.

I also think the Republicans of old, the William F. Buckleys and Reagans of the world have been replaced with radicals with little intellect who are more hypocritical than they are wise or methodical.

All in all it's the least of two evils. I try to stay independent but lean left I guess.

I think it's wise how Orthodoxy looks at issues and the totality of the political equation and allows Orthodox Christians not to check out their brains at the door and vote their conscience without a guilt trip brain-washing session. It's one of MANY things about Orthodoxy I find compelling....

The last I heard, the majority of self-identified Catholics voted Democrat in the last election. But when you look at more "serious" Catholics, you start to see a lot of Republicans. They seem primarily motivated by the abortion issue, but along with that they have embraced a lot of other Republican values, including being pro-death penalty, and often even economically neo-liberal.

I find it a bit weird really. Catholics in Canada seem to be on a totally different page for the most part.

 

[MKJ]

Or even libertarian to the point of quasi-objectivism, which I find very odd. Particularly when people like George Wiegel insist that the Church is staunchly pro-capitalist (Quadragesimo Anno? What's that?...)


It's traditionally been the same in the UK, where Catholicism and the Labour movement have been closely associated. This has some reasonable historical foundation, though: Catholicism was largely associated with urban populations (as was Labour), the working class (in part through Irish immigration), and the joint concern for the welfare of the poor and social justice. Also, being very much not the Established Church, we couldn't very well align with a suspicious and often hostile establishment.

That's beginning to change a bit - though there has always been a wealthy, traditionalist, and politically conservative wing to the Church in the UK - partly because the Labour Party under Foot, Kinnock and Blair/Brown distanced itself from the Church a lot, and took on an actively progressivist agenda which was inimical to the Church's moral teachings. Though it still took about 20 years for the Church to even consider changing course a bit.

So to me, from that context, the idea that you can only be right-wing as a Christian seems a bit... odd.

IIRC, some of the early 20th century Distributists were involved in the early years of the labour party?

 

[lawndartboy]

Symphonia—The Harmony of Faith and Politics

Constantine's support for the early Church laid the foundation for the doctrine of symphonia—the ideal of political and religious leaders working in harmony to realize God's will here on earth. This ideal is rooted in the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Symphonia avoids two extremes: the separation of Church from State on the one hand, and the fusion of Church and State on the other. Despite his active participation in the Ecumenical Council, Constantine did not view himself as one of the bishops, but rather as "bishop of those outside." This ideal found concrete expression in the Byzantine Empire, which lasted for a thousand years. Under Constantine's rule began the transformation of Roman culture. Execution by crucifixion ceased, gladiatorial battles as punishment ended.
Symphonia has a number of important implications for Orthodox Christians. One is that the Church is called to pray for those in power, even if they are not Christians. For Orthodoxy, symphonia is the ideal situation, but not the only one. Christianity is not tied to any one particular political structure. Another implication is that there is no separation between the physical and the spiritual (belief in dualism is an early heresy). Orthodoxy is both a personal and a public faith. The Orthodox Church encourages good citizenship, public service along with philanthropy. Its preference for lay involvement in politics helps avoid the dangers of theocratic rule. It is expected that Orthodox Christians will bring the values of the Church into the political and social realms.

 

[Protoevangel]

It is expected that Orthodox Christians will bring the values of the Church into the political and social realms.

This deserves to be brought to the forefront.

"We live in a secular state" is no excuse to vote or promote unOrthodox or unChristian principles.