Orthodox

[Skripper]

Forgive me, Gary, but if you believe that, you are heretical by definition of the Church, which holds to the Council of Chalcedon decision defining the Theotokos doctrine. (I hasten to add that I don't say that to insult, but to bring to your attention what I understand to be an error in your thought vis-à-vis what the Church teaches.

Poly,

With all due respect, I had already pointed out Gary's mistake . . . no reason to accuse him of heresy.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have read quite a bit of what Protestants have against Catholics, Catholics have against Protestants, Orthodox have against Catholics, but I have read almost nothing at all about what Catholics have against Orthodoxs.

So I ask of you, why do Catholics think that Orthodoxs are wrong or incorrect in their thinking? The Orthodox faith claims that the Catholic Church split from them, and of course the Catholic Church claims the opposite. What evidence do we have to back up this claim? Any information or links would be appreciated.

Of course, I'd ask any information you have to be presented in a respectful manner.

To my Orthodox brothers and sisters that come here on a regular basis, please do not view this as an attack on your religion. I am very ignorant when it comes to Catholic-Orthodox relations and wish to learn as much as I can. Any questions I have about the Orthodox faith, I will come directly to you. Please understand I am only trying to better educate myself.

Thanks in advance.

We don’t have anything against them… they are Catholic and I wish they would reunite. Their theology isn’t different from ours but they think it is…

Our evidence is the chair of Peter.

 

[garydench]

Neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe that Mary was "responsible" for Christ's divinity. That's not what the doctrine of Theotokos means. It simply means that the two natures of Christ cannot be divided/sparated; it means that Mary gave birth to one divine Person, not merely to a "nature" and that it is, therefore, incorrect that Mary gave birth to Christ's human "nature" only. Mothers give birth to babies, to persons, not merely "natures." This is not to imply or suggest, as many mistakenly conclude, that if the doctrine of Theotokos is correct then this must somehow mean that Mary in some way "preceded" God on some eternal, cosmic timeline . . . no.

So do Catholics and Orthodox differ over the Theotokos doctrine at all, then? Or was I mistaken there?

 

[Benedicta00]

So do Catholics and Orthodox differ over the Theotokos doctrine at all, then? Or was I mistaken there?

They disagree with the Immaculate Conception, that she was created with out Original Sin. They believe she was sinless but they view how one is fallen slightly different than we do. We believe you are born with this sin on your soul, and need to be forgiven it through baptism. They believe you are born sick with sin nature that will sin. They baptized to confer the graces need to not give in to the flesh, to resist the inclination to sin and to transform the human condition into something beautiful for God. We believe the same but we believe original sin needs to be removed and we believe Mary was never born with it. They believe God filled her with grace and she never committed a sin. In essence it’s the same but viewed differently because original sin is view differently.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes, I find most of our differences to be mostly in semantics. For example;

1. Instead of "purgaotry", they say "state of purification after death" (same thing)

2. Instead of saying "spiritual" and "phsysical", the Orthodox say "Created" and "Uncreated"

3. Instead of "Original Sin", they say that all man is born into a fallen nature with no personal fault (same deal)

4. Instead of "Transubstantiation", they say that the Eucharist becomes the actual flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, but do not define it (same thing; it's a mystery)

5. Instead of "Immaculate Conception", they say that Mary was removed of sin at some point in her life.

6. Instead of saying the Holy Spirit procedes from the Father and the Son, they say from the Father alone. We both recognize that the Holy Spirit procedes through the Son as well, with the Father as the ultimate originator.

Yes . . . I have found this to be true as well . .. And add to this very real cultural differences which affect how something is looked at, and what is emphasized and what is de-emphasized, and you get what appears to be differences, but really aren't in a substantial way . .

As I mentioned above, for me, in the final analysis, it came down to an issue of authority . . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

So do Catholics and Orthodox differ over the Theotokos doctrine at all, then? Or was I mistaken there?

I am not aware of any difference . . this was declared well before the great schism . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Irenaeus]

I think the schism lies a lot with the West-East mindset.

The East was always more mystical, we were very precise.

The West has been irrevocably influenced by Augustine. No Father has influenced the Church, West or East, like he has. He is a giant. And his theology on grace is very direct.

While the East was fighting for orthodoxy in Christology (like Athanasius, Gregory Nazianzen, etc.) we were fighting for orthodoxy in soteriology, more.

Of course we both fought together, but certain groups gave both sides different problems to deal with, and different apologetics, two different languages to describe the apostolic doctrine, etc.

 

[Polycarp1]

Poly,

With all due respect, I had already pointed out Gary's mistake . . . no reason to accuse him of heresy.

Gary, my apologies -- as I tried to make clear, that was not intended to be an accusation but to point you in the direction that the Church teaches. If I failed in that attempt and offended you, I deeply regret it.

Skripper, when I began composing my response (which I was interrupted in doing), your post was not yet "up"; Gary's was the last post in the thread.

 

[Skripper]

Gary, my apologies -- as I tried to make clear, that was not intended to be an accusation but to point you in the direction that the Church teaches. If I failed in that attempt and offended you, I deeply regret it.

Skripper, when I began composing my response (which I was interrupted in doing), your post was not yet "up"; Gary's was the last post in the thread.

Poly,

I know what you meant, and that your intentions were nothing but good. I would just have worded it differently.

 

[RhetorTheo]

I'll simply point out that the Melkites, and I'm sure the other byzantines, refer to Mary as the "theotokos." I would say we believe what the Orthodox believe, which is simply an eastern way of formulating the same things that Rome teaches and what is in the CCC.