Orthodox who support homosexual activity

GregConstantine · Jan 28, 2014

@Lukaris, I don't think they do. Not to disparage old people, but most of them are in their 60's-80's, they grew up in a time that was much more conservative than now, and did not grow up with the internet and social media. The information revolution came very quickly upon them and overwhelmed them, and I don't think they really know how influencial social media and the internet is, they so they don't know the pervasiveness of the problem.

Kristos · Jan 28, 2014

What we need is a Grand Inquisitor to root out these heretics!

rusmeister · Jan 28, 2014

I think there is something Greg is right about.

I DO think that we all, starting with priests and bishops, ought to be reminding us, in both homilies and private discussions, what the Church teachings are and what it means to disdain them, to hold a private opinion that disagrees with and denies Church teaching. That anathema is a real and relevant concept today, and not some hoary old idea of the past.

The spirit of the age is all about "Well, I don't know, this is just *my* opinion" (Fr Tom Hopko speaks this way all the time, and while effective in speaking to moderns outside of the Church - it speaks their language of uncertainty regarding traditions of the past, I think it pernicious in teaching us how to think about the teachings of the Church (I almost said "our own beliefs" and realized the ambiguity of that expression and corrected it just before writing it). We should find out, not what just this or that Church father said, but what the consensus is, and be certain of it, and when we are, to stand up and correct those in the Church who are in error. Speaking the truth in love.

Mariya116 · Jan 28, 2014

GregConstantine said:
How have you guys countered this? What do you say when all you do is simply repeat the teachings of the Church regarding marriage and sexuality, and they (I'm talking about other Orthodox Christians) respond by accusing you of being judgmental, etc?

No homosexual has ever asked my opinion about their sex life and no straight person has ever asked my opinion about other people's homosexual life, so I never have conversations on the topic.

rusmeister · Jan 28, 2014

Mariya116 said:
No homosexual has ever asked my opinion about their sex life and no straight person has ever asked my opinion about other people's homosexual life, so I never have conversations on the topic.

I'd say that a person for whom the issue does not come up is very, very lucky.

Only I'd ask what a "sex life" is, and why it is called "a life", and how this is some life disconnected from our lives in general.
?

Mariya116 · Jan 28, 2014

rusmeister said:
I'd say that a person for whom the issue does not come up is very, very lucky.

Only I'd ask what a "sex life" is, and why it is called "a life", and how this is some life disconnected from our lives in general.
?

"Sex life"? No idea. I have none so it is very disconnected from me.

Mariya116 · Jan 28, 2014

Guess that's why I have zero interest in that of others, especially homosexuals...

Cappadocious · Jan 29, 2014

rusmeister said:
The spirit of the age is all about "Well, I don't know, this is just *my* opinion" (Fr Tom Hopko speaks this way all the time.

And, you know, St. Paul, among others.

GregConstantine · Jan 29, 2014

@Mariya116, this is not about the details of someone's private lives and what they are chosing to do in the bedroom. This is about Orthodox Christians (laity and even clergy) who are actively promoting the idea that there is nothing wrong with homosexual acitivity and gay marriage is something worthwhile to support and encourage.
I'm going to assume Mariya116, that you don't support adultery. So if you or someone reiterates the teaching of the Church that adultery is a sin, are you or that someone getting into the business of what someone is doing in their bedroom?

Mariya116 · Jan 29, 2014

GregConstantine said:
@Mariya116, this is not about the details of someone's private lives and what they are chosing to do in the bedroom. This is about Orthodox Christians (laity and even clergy) who are actively promoting the idea that there is nothing wrong with homosexual acitivity and gay marriage is something worthwhile to support and encourage.
I'm going to assume Mariya116, that you don't support adultery. So if you or someone reiterates the teaching of the Church that adultery is a sin, are you or that someone getting into the business of what someone is doing in their bedroom?

I don't have conversations about adultery and Church teachings about it with anybody. Why would I???

GregConstantine · Jan 29, 2014

@Mariya116, you are avoiding answering the question.

nonetheless, if you have truly never spoken a word about adultery or anything like that, why did you respond on this tread?

rusmeister · Jan 29, 2014

Mariya116 said:
"Sex life"? No idea. I have none so it is very disconnected from me.

Mariya116 said:
Guess that's why I have zero interest in that of others, especially homosexuals...

Greg is right. You have come on the thread to say something and I suspect it is to deny what the Church teaches and affirms - that same-sex sexual relations are sin, brokenness with God, and that the person who would come to Christ must commit to surrendering that passion, that acting on that passion is, like adultery, a thing to be condemned, not celebrated. Do you deny that?

Mariya116 · Jan 29, 2014

GregConstantine said:
@Mariya116, you are avoiding answering the question.

nonetheless, if you have truly never spoken a word about adultery or anything like that, why did you respond on this tread?

Cuz I stop by this forum from time to time. There are usually no interesting topics but if I see something where I can say at least something, I do.

GregConstantine · Jan 29, 2014

You said:

"so I never have conversations on the topic"

But now you are, so again, why did you comment on this specific tread if you truly never had a conversation on the topic? Not why do you generally comment on a internet forum, that is not the question being asked. I think Rusmeister is right, I think you are saying something more than just "oh I never have any conversations about that topic, fyi...I'm just posting on a forum..."

Mariya116 · Jan 29, 2014

Well if you're asking why I responded in this thread, I guess when I saw the title I was surprised to hear that other Orthodox Christians actually have conversations about homosexuals and how the Church feels about them etc.. I never heard such conversations at the church coffee hour.

Lukaris · Jan 29, 2014

I think our concern is towards sinful popular psychology distorting Orthodox faith and its impact on the mindset of laity. This should never be about abusing individuals since we all need to work out our faith in fear & trembling; ignorance of what is sinful undermines our hope of salvation.

rusmeister · Jan 29, 2014

Mariya, I'd really like to know, and the right answer would rate an apology from me, so I'm going to repeat my question:

rusmeister said:
The Church teaches and affirms that same-sex sexual relations are sin, brokenness with God, and that the person who would come to Christ must commit to surrendering that passion, that acting on that passion is, like adultery, a thing to be condemned, not celebrated. Do you deny that?

Mariya116 · Jan 29, 2014

rusmeister said:
Mariya, I'd really like to know, and the right answer would rate an apology from me, so I'm going to repeat my question: Originally Posted by rusmeister

The Church teaches and affirms that same-sex sexual relations are sin, brokenness with God, and that the person who would come to Christ must commit to surrendering that passion, that acting on that passion is, like adultery, a thing to be condemned, not celebrated. Do you deny that?

I don't understand homosexuality. It puzzles me, and no, I don't like it. I was at a coffee hour at the Anglican church where I go, and someone introduced another man as "his husband." At first I thought I misheard him. There were two attractive men, and they were not married to women - they were married to each other. I do not get it.

When it comes to passions, I will refrain from opening my mouth and saying anything about other people's passions since I am a major sinner myself. I don't say my prayers, I don't fast, I am nasty to people when I'm in a bad mood, and when I do to church, half the time it's not an Orthodox church. Who am I to speak of other people's passions and condemnation?

There's no need for an apology - I'm not upset with anything you said.

rusmeister · Jan 30, 2014

Mariya116 said:
I don't understand homosexuality. It puzzles me, and no, I don't like it. I was at a coffee hour at the Anglican church where I go, and someone introduced another man as "his husband." At first I thought I misheard him. There were two attractive men, and they were not married to women - they were married to each other. I do not get it.

When it comes to passions, I will refrain from opening my mouth and saying anything about other people's passions since I am a major sinner myself. I don't say my prayers, I don't fast, I am nasty to people when I'm in a bad mood, and when I do to church, half the time it's not an Orthodox church. Who am I to speak of other people's passions and condemnation?

There's no need for an apology - I'm not upset with anything you said.

Thank you!

However, my question wasn't whether you "like" homosexuality or not, or whether you understand it (how wonderful it would be if we were all innocent, and all puzzled by the idea of sin!), but whether you accept or deny the Church's clear teaching on it, that it breaks our relationship with God, that we are to shun it, like all sin, and repent of it, like all sin?

And I would further ask you, and it seems to be a rather obvious question to everybody else - what should one do, in the Church, if a person IN THE CHURCH says that fornication, or as they would probably put it, "sleeping together" (outside of marriage, or homosexual relations, are fine things and no obstacle to Christian spiritual life?

No one thinks you should say that anyone should be nasty to others, or that we should try to determine their standing before God, but do you think you should be silent if you hear outright falsehood being taught as truth in the Church, by and to people who ostensibly want to try to live the Christian life?

So two questions:
Do you accept that the homosexual act is sin?
Should you correct someone (in the Church) who thinks that (any) sin is not sin?

graceandpeace · Jan 30, 2014

Would it be okay if I ask a question? It is related to this subject & I don't want to derail the OP's thread.

I am not Orthodox & I am still seeking. I think homosexual acts are sinful, though I don't think the orientation is sinful. It seems a plain reading of Scripture indicates homosexual acts are wrong. The argument I hear in some of the pro-gay marriage in the church folks is that in Scripture, the homosexual acts are repercussions of or in the context of idolatry or pagan worship.

Now, I don't disagree that homosexual acts were part of some pagan religious worship back then, but what do you - as Orthodox - say to those Christians who believe that homosexual acts are okay if in a loving marriage context apart from pagan religion? Did "loving gay relationships" REALLY not exist in Moses or the Apostle Paul's generation? That seems to be the assumption, but any info about how Orthodoxy handles this would be helpful.

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