Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

jimmyjimmy · May 20, 2017

tstor said:
Protestants affirm the following:
Salvation is through grace alone by faith alone.

Orthodox Christians affirm the following:
Salvation is through grace alone by faith.

The difference is subtle but of vital importance.

As a Protestant, I must disagree with your phrasing. We believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is correct. It states that we are "saved BY grace, THROUGH faith".

Also, the two verses clearly demonstrate why the Orthodox position is incorrect.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Albion · May 20, 2017

tstor said:
Protestants affirm the following:
Salvation is through grace alone by faith alone.

Orthodox Christians affirm the following:
Salvation is through grace alone by faith.

The difference is subtle but of vital importance.

I don't think the description of the Orthodox POV is right, tho.

Traveling teacher · May 20, 2017

The number one split in the 3rd century church and the church in 1054ad
I believe was over the doctrine and interpretation of the trinity!!!!!!

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
As a Protestant, I must disagree with your phrasing. We believe Ephesians 2:8-9 which states that we are "saved BY grace, THROUGH faith".

Also, the two verses clearly demonstrate why the Orthodox position is incorrect.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

"By" and "through" are two translations of the same Greek word, ya goof.

jimmyjimmy · May 20, 2017

Silmarien said:
Does the difference come down to whether or not there's any active participation on your part?

The test is, in your view would you have something to "boast" about? If salvation is synergistic, then you do. . . and, by the "test" Paul gives us, you would be trusting in a different gospel.

Tangible · May 20, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
I categorically deny that God committed suicide.

I see where you're coming from. Yet we do have these statements made by Our Lord recorded in Holy Scripture showing that though Jesus did not commit suicide, he certainly died willingly, purposefully, of his own accord:

John 10
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Luke 12
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

Luke 13
Yes, today, tomorrow, and the next day I must proceed on my way. For it wouldn't do for a prophet of God to be killed except in Jerusalem!

Matthew 27
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Luke 23
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

John 19
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Silmarien · May 20, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
The test is, in your view would you have something to "boast" about? If salvation is synergistic, then you do. . . and, by the "test" Paul gives us, you would be trusting in a different gospel.

Paul also says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. What that involves is a matter of debate, but I'm not sure how it could possible preclude active participation.

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

Albion said:
I don't think the description of the Orthodox POV is right, tho.

Tbh the whole faith alone controversy is foreign to us, from both perspectives. Our conception of works is very different from the Catholic conception, as evinced by the Catholic idea of supererogation. For us, "works" means obeying God's will, and simply that. For Catholics it means fulfilling some contract required for salvation, and that you can somehow go above that and others can use your extra credit.

jimmyjimmy · May 20, 2017

Silmarien said:
Paul also says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. What that involves is a matter of debate, but I'm not sure how it could possible preclude active participation.

The "participation" is "dying".

Silmarien · May 20, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
The "participation" is "dying".

Alright, but given that "dying" is obviously metaphorical in this sense, what makes the Protestant concept of "dying to sin" a matter of faith but Orthodox asceticism suddenly a work?

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

Tangible said:
I see where you're coming from. Yet we do have these statements made by Our Lord recorded in Holy Scripture showing that though Jesus did not commit suicide, he certainly died willingly, purposefully, of his own accord:

John 10
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Luke 12
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

Luke 13
Yes, today, tomorrow, and the next day I must proceed on my way. For it wouldn't do for a prophet of God to be killed except in Jerusalem!

Matthew 27
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

Luke 23
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

John 19
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Right Just like Job's torment had an important purpose.

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

Silmarien said:
Alright, but given that "dying" is obviously metaphorical in this sense, what makes the Protestant concept of "dying to sin" a matter of faith but Orthodox asceticism suddenly a work?

It's mystical, not metaphorical. Just like the bread and wine are mystically Christ's body and blood, not metaphorically.

jimmyjimmy · May 20, 2017

Silmarien said:
Alright, but given that "dying" is obviously metaphorical in this sense, what makes the Protestant concept of "dying to sin" a matter of faith but Orthodox asceticism suddenly a work?

Protestants don't see the role we play in sanctification as salvific. All that we need has been supplied by Christ, which is why faith is the only way in which to take hold of it.

Constantine the Sinner · May 20, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Protestants don't see the role we play in sanctification as salvific. All that we need has been supplied by Christ, which is why faith is the only way in which to take hold of it.

Do Protestants see obedience to God as both a choice and important? If so, this is largely a semantic issue caused by the Catholic Church selling the works of saints.

ladodgers6 · May 21, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
Icons are painted pictures of Chirst and saints, which we honor. We honor them for the same reason we honor Crosses and the Bible, not because we think the wood and paint is a god.

Thanks for your comments. So the "ICONS" in a marriage ceremony are different?

ladodgers6 · May 21, 2017

Silmarien said:
You might be using the word "legalism" to mean two different things. When I hear the word, I think of language like "conviction of sin," penal substitution, a focus on God's justice, often at the expense of God's love, and other courtroom related metaphors. I don't believe that EO rejects that approach entirely, but it's definitely not sufficient in and of itself. So if you toss around the word "legalism" in EO circles, that may be what people think you mean. And obviously in that sense, theosis is the opposite of legalistic.

Thanks for your comments. I have been explaining the term "Legalism" to them. Because we need to teach preach against "Legalism" & "Antinomianism". Because the protestant position has been accused of being "Antinomianism", like Paul was when he preached the Gospel of Grace! But they do not continuing reading to understand where our works sit.

You seem to be using "legalism" in the context of works of the law, though. I'm not convinced that that's really what's going on in Eastern Orthodoxy, though. None of it seems to be an attempt to put oneself right with God, so to speak. I linked this article earlier, which does deal specifically with this topic: Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

The Catholic church also states that Salvation is by Grace, until you read the printed words in their confessions. (Council of Trent)

Eastern Orthodoxy approaches the Atonement differently than the Reformed tradition, but it's incorrect to say that Christ is missing. The work of Christ is a victory over the powers that hold mankind in bondage: sin, death, decay, etc. As I understand it, it's more a matter of setting human nature right so that we can be at one with God than satisfying God's wrath. I find it an insanely powerful statement, and a much more profound way of approaching the whole Passion, up to that final "It is finished." Christ is definitely not missing, though.

Okay? where is Christ in your teachings? What does he do? Why do you need Christ if people are not born sinners? Why not make us all like him, instead of being from this earth? Why not be in heaven from birth?

Someone has previously recommended Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Way, which I think would help clear up some of your concerns, since he does touch upon a number of these issues. Because Eastern Orthodoxy is very much aware of the distance between humanity and God. There's a huge emphasis on sin and repentance, despite the fact that their approach to the Fall is different than Augustine's.

But where is the good news for the ungodly? Why only emphasize on our works, instead of His? The way I see it, when we are looking inside ourselves for redemption, instead outside of ourselves to Christ who came into the world to fulfill the Law not abolish it. Because this requires Perfect holiness without a single blemish. So I find it an insanely powerful statement, that the EOC is aware of the distance between humanity of God.

ladodgers6 · May 21, 2017

FenderTL5 said:
Well, you used some words I recognize. Your description doesn't sound like Orthodoxy.

I am a convinced protestant reformed.

ladodgers6 · May 21, 2017

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So from what Orthodox resource do you derive the idea we cannot lean upon Christ for our own salvation?

Some several individuals and resources: sites, books. Please explain the Biblical teaching of Justification. Thanks

Constantine the Sinner · May 21, 2017

ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for your comments. So the "ICONS" in a marriage ceremony are different?

Different icons are presented to the couple in different traditions.

Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

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