Orthodox views on corporal punishment.

[Akathist]

I grew up when spankings were the norm. There was a difference between a spanking and abuse. A spanking was done to correct.

Abuse was done to hurt out of rage or mental instability.

I was abused by my mother a couple times. She spanked me more then a couple times too. I knew the difference.

The abuse was when she had me on the ground hitting my head and my ear that had an infection in it. She kicked my stomach. She hit me close to 100 times and kicked me twice.

That was abuse.

The spankings were when I was little and was naughty and knew I was. It was three swats on my behind with just an open hand and my clothes were on. It was to make a point. Parents were in charge, not little kids.

I have only had a miscarriage, not children. But I used to do child therapy for a couple years (hated it btw). I have taught parenting classes out of text books for people ordered to them by family court. I hated that too. But I was young and supervised by people who had kids so I wasn't in the deep end of the pool without a life preserver.

I have never studied the Orthodox views on corporal punishment.

Can someone enlighten me?

 

[AureateDawn]

I would like enlightenment as well in this subject,

 

[jckstraw72]

i doubt there is one view, but i cant see whats wrong with spanking. we certainly need to discipline our children and raise them strictly -- im pretty sure thatd be a common Orthodox view. i wonder if St. Theophan the Recluse mentions spanking at all in his book about raising children.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

"They may not like me, but they will respect me!"
--Major Payne

I don't mean to be arrogant, but I've noticed something -- among my group of friends, I'm the one who has his life most in order and who best gets along with his parents. I'm the only one who grew up in a strict home and was spanked. Personally, I think it's a huge disservice to a child to be lenient... when I was a kid, I knew I was not in control, I knew my father was to be feared, but at the same time, I knew I was safe. Those things he said and did when I was young that I hated and could not understand make perfect sense now, as much as I hate to admit it.

I cannot possibly conceive that Orthodoxy would have a problem with corporal punishment. It would make no sense.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

I agree with it to an extent. I agree with everything Salvatore expressed, because I was raised the same way. I've also noticed trends in children who weren't raised with discipline and they all got to the point where they had no respect for their parents or authority in general. Most all of them were very spoiled too, and their relationships with their parents weren't the best.

It's one thing to slap a child's hand so he or she will learn a lesson. It's another thing to shake them or literally beat them.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

[nutroll]

The thing about corporal punishment, is that there is nothing wrong with it if it is administered well. If it is administered poorly, it has no benefit, and can have negative consequences. When a child is spanked, it is very important that they know why they are being spanked. They must understand that the spanking is a consequence of their bad behavior. If this is not the case, a child will tend to act out in violent ways. So for example, it is not a good idea to delay a spanking until the other parent gets home. By that point, many kids (especially younger kids) will have forgotten what they did wrong, or will not be able to properly associate the behavior with the punishment. It is also vitally important that a child not be punished for another child's transgression.

The problem is that for years, people have been under the impression that spanking is inherently wrong, and so they resort to other means of punishment. But other punishments must also be administered properly in order to be successful. How many times have we seen children given a time out, only to weasel their way out of it, or sneak around and have fun while their parents aren't looking. Or how many children get sent to their room where they have a computer, video games, tv, DVDs, CDs, and any other form of entertainment they might want. This not only doesn't punish children, it rewards them for bad behavior, and it is an immediate reward which is quickly associated with the bad behavior.

It seems to me that no matter what form of punishment one uses with their children, it must be immediate, it must really be a punishment, and it needs to be clear that the punishment goes with the behavior. With that in mind, I don't think corporal punishment is necessary to correct bad behavior, but neither do I think that properly administered corporal punishment is harmful to a child psychologically

 

[SeraphimSarov]

As far as the line between spanking and abuse goes... my understanding has been that spanking is never done in anger, for then there is danger of going too far... it should be emotionally stressful to strike your own flesh and blood, knowing that even though it is for their own good, it hurts them.

That may have been something St. Tikhon of Zadonsk said, but I am about 30% positive about that.

 

[Kvikklunsj]

Agreed. It's not abuse if it's done appropriately, and as long as it is, I think it's generally a lot more effective than sitting there trying to negotiate with a child. The people I know who have done that in lieu of spanking have very badly behaved children.

 

[JuvenalyMartinka]

Time Out: The Spanking Alternative?

FATHER:
"...and you will sit here and *think* about what you have done..."

CHILD:
"Ok dad... (chuckle) I'm thinkin' about it!"

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Time Out: The Spanking Alternative?

FATHER:
"...and you will sit here and *think* about what you have done..."

Ha.... that came after the spanking! And "time-out" was more like sitting attentively in a corner facing the wall, and doing anything while sitting there was grounds for more time. So a strict "time-out" coupled with spanking, in my opinion, is quite effective.

 

[musicluvr]

I agree with flod logic - I know parents who try to negotiate with their 4 year olds, and it just doesn't work. Their kids are turning out to be whiney, deceptive, bratty little things...

 

[Hoankan]

The thing about corporal punishment, is that there is nothing wrong with it if it is administered well. If it is administered poorly, it has no benefit, and can have negative consequences. When a child is spanked, it is very important that they know why they are being spanked. They must understand that the spanking is a consequence of their bad behavior. If this is not the case, a child will tend to act out in violent ways. So for example, it is not a good idea to delay a spanking until the other parent gets home. By that point, many kids (especially younger kids) will have forgotten what they did wrong, or will not be able to properly associate the behavior with the punishment. It is also vitally important that a child not be punished for another child's transgression.

The problem is that for years, people have been under the impression that spanking is inherently wrong, and so they resort to other means of punishment. But other punishments must also be administered properly in order to be successful. How many times have we seen children given a time out, only to weasel their way out of it, or sneak around and have fun while their parents aren't looking. Or how many children get sent to their room where they have a computer, video games, tv, DVDs, CDs, and any other form of entertainment they might want. This not only doesn't punish children, it rewards them for bad behavior, and it is an immediate reward which is quickly associated with the bad behavior.

It seems to me that no matter what form of punishment one uses with their children, it must be immediate, it must really be a punishment, and it needs to be clear that the punishment goes with the behavior. With that in mind, I don't think corporal punishment is necessary to correct bad behavior, but neither do I think that properly administered corporal punishment is harmful to a child psychologically

I took a juvenile delinquency class and it had a lot of good information that lines up with this. The three main keys is that it is consistent in both when it is used and force of punishment, done quickly after the incident, and the reasons why it is being done is clear.

For me, spanking and (one time) getting slapped were rare but I swear that corner was my main haunt for the better part of my 8th year in life.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I don't know the Orthodox perspective but I can speak a little from experience.

A lot depends on the age of the child and the infraction. Small children won't remember offenses after an hour or more, so if a swat to the behind is to be delivered, it should come quickly. Also, if the child is putting himself or others in danger (like running into traffic) there is no time to waste if spanking is the best option. When I say spanking, I mean a swat or three on the legs.

But as children get older I have found that there are more effective punishments than spanking. The son of a friend of mine continually put his little sister in danger. She restricted and spanked him but it didn't stop the behavior. He was about 7 at the time. Finally she sat down with him and explained with him what would happen if his little sister died. She told him, calmly and quietly that her skin would grow cold to the touch and her body would become stiff. Her heart would stop beating. She described the funeral and the grief of his mom and dad. By the time she got to putting the sister in a box, lowering her into the ground and covering her with dirt, the son was beside himself and vowed never again to do any of the things he had done.

As my own son has gotten older, spanking has given way to other punishments. Taking a beloved game system or TV privileges causes far more grief for a 9 year old than a spanking he knows he can endure.

M.

 

[Chocolatesa]

I don't have kids yet, but as for myself I'm sure the spankings I got when I was little were well deserved and did me good lol. I didn't get traumatised by them lol. I'm not planning on being the kind of parent that tries to reason with a 4-year-old, but I agree if there's exceptions like Monica noted, I'd definitely try other methods.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Another thought: spanking while angry or extremely frustrated is not a good idea. I have heard too many comedians and parents refer to spanking as "opening a can of whoop a%%" on one's kids Discipline should be sober and controlled. If one's child has just ruined the expensive rug or broken a peice of heirloom china it may be difficult to remain composed and administer discipline with a clear head.

In our house, we always try to keep our voices even and calm. Parents should never yell and scream at children. The child should be clear that the parent is in controll of the situation and cannot be manipulated. When my children were younger I would often remind them that I did not argue with children and that the more they whined and begged the less likely that they would get their way.

M.

 

[KatyaMartinka]

I was spanked as a child, but it only happened a few times, that's all that was needed.

the way my mother handled it was, at least when we were old enough to understand, probably about 3 or so, she'd take us aside, explain what it was we'd done wrong, make sure we understood what it was we'd done wrong, and tell us she was going to spank us now. that way, we knew WHY we were being punished. then she'd spank us, and then tell us she loved us and hug us. at least that's how I remember it happening.

it was very effective. if she was angry at the time, she'd send us to our room to cool off for a few minutes. she NEVER spanked out of anger, she made sure of that.

I think I turned out alright.

 

[AxionEsti]

The only time to spank is when a child hurts another child, or person. Then that could be used to remind the child when they misbehave in public - for the child knows it is not an empty threat that you will spank if they don't settle down. It works like a charm, most of the time. They will have a good memory of it for quite a while. Most of the discipline our kids got were the "threat" of a spanking only. Then they promptly behaved without further action.

 

[SeekingTheLight]

Here are my 2 cents. My mom and dad always spanked us if we needed it. I knew my mom and dad loved me, but that a spanking was the consequence of my actions. Let me just say that I learned early on what was expected of me, and I remained a pretty good kid my whole life. I do the same with my own kids, and you know what? They are also pretty good kids, who hardly ever need disciplining.

Now, I also agree that once they are older (my daughter is 10) sometimes other things need to be done. Spanking just doesn't work well when they are that old. For her, I do things like: take her Ipod away for a week, have her write Bible verses appropriate for the infraction, not let her play outside for a few days, whatever. These work better for her.

Now, when my husband were first married we both worked at a Christian School - he watched the kids at the afternoon daycare, and I taught some of the early morning classes. Anyway, let me tell you, you could TELL which kids were spanked at home, and which ones weren't. There was always a huge difference in their behavior.

Anyway, so I spank my kids, and if I have anymore, I will spank them too - when they need it. Spanking is not abuse if used correctly! Kids know the difference.

 

[Protoevangel]

Before I would spank my children, I would have them explain to me why they were getting the spanking. If they were too flustered to explain, I would let the explanation pass, and go a little easier on them, as the expectation was as bad as the punishment.

I usually used time-outs as a separate punishment, not an add-on (except for a couple times of extreme rebellion, or when they could have seriously hurt someone or gotten themselves hurt).

Later, I would sometimes let them choose which punishment they wanted; the spanking or the time out. They usually chose the spanking, because they knew it would be over quicker.

These days, punishments are more like loosing access to the computer for days, weeks, or months (except for schoolwork), loosing TV & phone privileges, no sleepovers, etc. I still use spanking as a verbal ultimatum, but it's been years since I've had to go through with it.

 

[AureateDawn]

Nothing like a good old fashioned beating. For you yankees, beating = spanking. Belt, hand on a bare and preferably wet bottom, or a good old hickory switch. And if you squirm, it's your fault if it lands somewhere besides your butt. I learned that being whipped on the back hurts more, so I very quickly ceased all wiggling.

EDIT: 10+ or so, grounding is more effective, I believe. Spankings last a short amount of time, but for the older kids being grounded from hanging at the mall, the phone, TV, or computer (or all of them together ) is devastation. I speak from experience. heh