Orthodox view of the Virgin Mary

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm wondering what the Orthodox Church teaches about devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Just a clarification.. I DON'T mean how it's similar/different to the Catholic view of her. I would appreciate if the discussion didn't become about that I'm not trying to compare the Orthodox view to the Catholic view, but rather to what Protestants believe.

I also don't mean the doctrines, and whether she sinned, or didn't sin, or anything about original sin, etc.

I just wanted to ask though, how do you see devotion to Mary? Does it bring us closer to God? How would you respond to the Protestant claim that it's idolatry? If you have any personal stories about Mary's intercession that you're alright with sharing, that would be great too (or, any stories about the Saints)

I'm asking just because I know the Catholic view of Mary, but not so much the Orthodox view.

Thank you! God bless!

 

[buzuxi02]

Veneration of Mary or a saint can never devolve into idolatry unless you seperate them from the person of Christ. They are all champions and heroes of the faith. Role models to emulate. If it wasnt for their service to Christ then no one would have any devotion to them because they would be forgotten right away.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks buzuxi

well I totally agree that we venerate Mary in order to come closer to Christ and to honour Him... I often ask Mary to help me to follow God better..

I've been talking to Protestants who believe that if we go to Mary at all, even if it's to be closer to Jesus, that is idolatry because we're not going straight to Him... what would be the response to this?

 

[cobweb]

Thanks buzuxi

well I totally agree that we venerate Mary in order to come closer to Christ and to honour Him... I often ask Mary to help me to follow God better..

I've been talking to Protestants who believe that if we go to Mary at all, even if it's to be closer to Jesus, that is idolatry because we're not going straight to Him... what would be the response to this?

Honestly, I find it best not to argue matters of Faith with them. It is bad for my blood pressure.

 

[Dorothea]

Honestly, I find it best not to argue matters of Faith with them. It is bad for my blood pressure.

I'm going to try to follow Mother Gavrilia's example on the issue of those who insult the Theotokos:

(excerpt from the book on her life):

..One day, sombody made a disrespectful remark on the Holy Virgin. (Those who happen to mention even Her Name to some Protestants will understand). She let a few minutes go by, then took aside the person in charge and told him: "Brother, I am sorry but I must tell you that as of tomorrow I will no longer be with you." He was disconcerted and embarrassed, because he had never seen that expression on her face before. Then she explained: "I cannot hear such words for Her, Whom I love most after our Lord Jesus Christ." Of course, apologies were made and such incidents never occurred again.

 

[Kristos]

What is the definition of devotion here? I don't recall ever seeing this word used in Orthodox writings, but I'm sure someone will point it out if I am wrong. Something about it just seems foreign to me.

 

[Lukaris]

Just a personal note it is the passages of John 19:26-27 that say it all for me; the Lord Jesus Christ, as I understand, has His mother beholding Him as God while he tells the apostle John to venerate the Theotokos. The word "behold" is used in scripture and I think it establishes the pattern of worship to the Lord & to venerate His mother.My 2 cents.

 

[hungrytiger]

Hi Monica Nice to see you again. I always appreciate your honest and courteous questions here and reading the discussion that follows. I don't know if what I'll have to say will really add much, but I'll give it a try. So here are some thoughts from a former Protestant.

Theotokos
Mother of God. Mary is Jesus' mother. Jesus is God. Not really a problem there when I understood it right. I, like probably many Protestants, did/do believe that yes, Jesus was fully God when he was conceived of by Mary. I do think that Orthodoxy better confirms this though and better acknowledges what this means, but still point granted.

I think it can be quite understandable to be wary of the term though. If it was meant that Mary was the mother of God the Father, or of the Holy Spirit, or that Jesus was begotten of Mary from all eternity like He is of the Father, then well yeah there'd be a serious problem there. I'm glad Protestants are wary of saying something if they think it might mean something like that. We don't mean it like that. Really, we don't. And I think it's pretty clear that we don't. So, if that's somebody's concern, I think it's pretty easy to put that fear at ease. But I think Orthodox should be able to understand and appreciate wariness of even the appearance of these kinds of mistakes.

Ever-virgin
I know the verses (well at least some of them) that Protestants point to to say she had other children and things like that. I'm sure you're already familiar with other interpretations of these verse that are held by the apostolic churches (cousins etc.). Different interpretations, how do we choose the right one? Does it even really matter? I didn't really get why it did matter so much. It could happen, sure, but did it?

This was actually one of the first things that I began to felt I understood the whole Tradition thing. It wasn't something I felt I could downright prove one way or another from just the text itself. It wasn't something that I felt I could derive philosophically somehow. It was just something that historically either happened or not. I saw no way of knowing apart from having some kind of . . . historical . . . connection . . . to the early church . . . yikes! that kind'a sounds like that Tradition thing that they said was their reason for believing it. Oh. Uh. Yeah. Well, it was kind of an ah ha moment for me anyway. I may not have accepted Tradition at the time, but I at least felt I better understood what it was.

 

[hungrytiger]

Oh, um, I'm sorry if I'm not directly addressing your question. I think I'm trying to get somewhere. It's just taking me a while to sort it out. But I guess it's taking me a while, because it did take me a while, coming from Protestantism that is. The misconceptions are things I had to get past before I had any hope of "getting" the Church's love for Mary. Otherwise it looked like something it's not.

Anyway, hope I'm not being more trouble than I'm worth.

Prayer, bows, & kisses = worship?
Asking other Christians to pray for you isn't worship. Bowing and kissing icons isn't worship. It's a greeting in respect and love.

Sinless?
None is without sin? Yet we are called to be holy as our Father in heaven is holy. Jesus came to save us from sin. To really save us. Could He actually have saved someone? Could someone actually live a sinless life through Him? Does our salvation really mean anything? Maybe we don't fully understand what that all means. I know I don't. And different Orthodox saints even have had different takes on just how sinless Mary was. But the Church does still seem to confirm that she was in some way holy. I was, I don't know, glad to hear that salvation actually meant something in somebody's life. I'd leap for joy! I mean isn't that wonderful? Isn't that how it should be? What in the world is Christianity if it denies even the possibility of that in someone's life?

We are not to judge others. So maybe one could argue that it's not our place to judge if she or anyone else in particular actually was saintly. But are we not also to think on whatever is good? "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." Phil 4:8 The Church has found something good in Mary. And to me it seems good to affirm what good we do find where ever we find it, for every good is God's good.

Love
That's what it's about, love. Isn't that wonderful too? Aren't we supposed to love one another? And when that other loves us, it's truly beautiful. If Jesus' mother loved her son, then she must love us. Because that is the proof of love of God, love of your brother. Mary loves Jesus, and she loves us too. Praise God! And, if we are Christians we should love our brothers and sisters too. We should love Mary. And if the Church is true that she is in some way good and holy, doesn't that make love for her natural and easy and joyous?

 

[buzuxi02]

Thanks buzuxi

I've been talking to Protestants who believe that if we go to Mary at all, even if it's to be closer to Jesus, that is idolatry because we're not going straight to Him... what would be the response to this?

At the wedding feast of Cana, they ran out of wine. The blessed Virgin Mary went up to Jesus and intercessed on behalf of the guests. Christ responded by saying, "What is that to me and you". He then granted Her request. The Theotokos then approached the 'servants' and said, 'Whatever He says to you, do it"(Jn 2.1-12).

Mary never seeks her own glory, She is the way-shower, always pointing the way to Christ and intercessing for His servants.

 

[Philothei]

I'm wondering what the Orthodox Church teaches about devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Just a clarification.. I DON'T mean how it's similar/different to the Catholic view of her. I would appreciate if the discussion didn't become about that I'm not trying to compare the Orthodox view to the Catholic view, but rather to what Protestants believe.

Devotion.....hmmm... Well it depends what one means about devoltion. I agree with Buzuxi and to add I think ... I think in the Protestant understaning threre is ONLY devoltion to God alone. Saints are secondary in importance for sure as they are considered just like anybody else. In the EO tradtion we "honor" the saints especially the Mother of God for who she is in relationship to her Son as His Mother. The proper word we use is "veneration" and "honor" as in rank she is "higher than the cherubims and most glorious than the seraphim" (according to one of our hymns). If that is considered "devotion" then yes she is to be honored and we do devote hymns and special prayers to her.

I also don't mean the doctrines, and whether she sinned, or didn't sin, or anything about original sin, etc.

I just wanted to ask though, how do you see devotion to Mary? Does it bring us closer to God? How would you respond to the Protestant claim that it's idolatry? If you have any personal stories about Mary's intercession that you're alright with sharing, that would be great too (or, any stories about the Saints)

I'm asking just because I know the Catholic view of Mary, but not so much the Orthodox view.

Thank you! God bless!

Again we see "devotion" not as a seperate part of our worship. Theotokos is honored a special person in relationship to her Son.Idolatry is "replacing God for something created by God" we are not doing that we ONLY venerate and honor Christ's mother who is also Theo-tokos (God bearer) .The respect and honor to His Mother is not idolatry as the subject of our worship is NOT Theotokos but "about Christ's soteriological event". By honoring her we are reminded of HIm who he created Her we emulate her example we are pointed to the historical end of our faith. It does not take away from honoring Christ or God. Ultimately it is not devoltion but revealing the unique event of the incarnation of Christ and how God can intervene in our lives if we by choice allow Him and do His Divine Will. Theotokos bottom line is the representation of God's mercy and Divine economy.

We have many manifestations of the "living saints" in our lives. Personally my grandma had revelation of Panagia (Theotokos) in her sleep where she was told to leave her house so that the communists would not kill her.... There are many who have witnessed similar situations of extreme cases where the saints have "revealed" themselves to warn people or reassure people.... I have not been blessed or have a similar story to share but the terstimonies are close enough

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thank you for the replies, they have all been helpful!

Kristos, when I said "devotion", I just meant things like asking the Theotokos for her prayers, venerating her icons, etc. In the Catholic faith, it could be praying the Rosary.



I completely agree that Mary points us to her Son, and I see her as Christ's Mother - the Mother of God - and not on her own.

There's just something I'm concerned about, which has never been an issue for me, but I started thinking about it after some conversations... if we need help, and ask Mary to help us, is that idolatry because we're not asking Christ? I know that she helps us by praying for us to Christ, so it's not like we're not going to God when we go to Mary, - but is it idolatry that we don't go straight to God? If we could ask Jesus or Mary for help, and we ask Mary, - is that taking away from Him or having "other gods" before Him? I'm SOO confused about this.. I used to understand it and had no worries about asking Mary for intercession or help... I prayed the Rosary and the Seven Sorrows chaplet and venerated her images and icons.. and I believed that is pleasing to God because she is His Mother and I am honouring her for His sake, and to be closer to Him.... but after hearing the Protestant view of Mary, I just can't get over it, I'm afraid to pray to Our Lady now cause I wonder why I'm praying to her and not to Jesus. I'd really appreciate any advice about this... this worry just came out of nowhere. I'm asking this at this forum and not OBOB just because I know the Catholic view of Mary, and I was interested in what the other 'ancient church' taught about her.. because if all Christians were always devoted to Mary since the beginning, that's saying a lot.

Thank you

 

[Protoevangel]

Monica,

If you are indeed praying to Mary, "and not to Jesus", you are likely entering very dangerous territory. One's prayers to Mary should be part of - not a replacement for - prayers to God.

That said, you should avoid the toxic teachings of the Protestants. They were created by Satan to confuse and divide. Look around, they have done exactly what they were created for.

Why is it, do you think, that the Eastern Orthodox, the Catholics, and the Oriental Orthodox Christians all agree on this, and the only ones who do not are those who are less than 500 years in existence?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica,

If you are indeed praying to Mary, "and not to Jesus", you are likely entering very dangerous territory. One's prayers to Mary should be part of - not a replacement for - prayers to God.

No it's not like that I pray to Jesus a lot, and to the Father... and when I pray to Mary, I ask her for prayers and I know that she only does God's will.. I also know that when we pray to Mary, God also hears those prayers, and ultimately it's He who answers them.

But is it wrong to pray to Mary at all? For example.. let's say you really need help in something, and you pray to God about it, but you also pray to Mary because her intercession is powerful with Him. Is that alright? Or if you ask Mary to teach you how to love God, and to be open to His will like she is..

That said, you should avoid the toxic teachings of the Protestants. They were created by Satan to confuse and divide. Look around, they have done exactly what they were created for.

I agree about division.. the 'fruits' of Protestantism are not good. I know I could never go back to being Protestant.. the only religions I really consider nowadays is Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Also, I believe in the Sacraments so I can't leave that.

Why is it, do you think, that the Eastern Orthodox, the Catholics, and the Oriental Orthodox Christians all agree on this, and the only ones who do not are those who are less than 500 years in existence?

that's a good point..

see all this makes sense in my mind, - and I believe it.. but I feel doubt, ever since talking to Protestants about Mary. I don't know how to get rid of the doubt, because a lot of is based on fear - the fear of committing idolatry. I think eventually I'll just have to believe, by obedience. After all, 2000 years of Christian teaching, the Saints, early Church Fathers, and countless miracles... that's a lot!

Also Mary did so much in my life.. she helped lead me to the Sacraments, back when I was Protestant.. she helped me overcome a major area of sin in my life.. I prayed about it for years and nothing happened, but when I asked Mary, she helped me instantly.. the way I see it, God is glorified through her prayers because she is His Mother, and it was He who gave her this place in Heaven..

God bless

 

[Philothei]

I agree with Proto. As long as you know that your prayers are an intercession to he Son and God you need not to worry. Do not let the devil sway you away by saying to you that you are an idiolater. You are not. In the Old Testament we had intercession prayer people were called to go to Ruth's grave and pray for her help.... Was that idolatry? People called up to the prophets for help who were dead to help them...was that idolatry?

The Jews had pictures of the prophets in their temples was that idolatry?

Nope! WE are not replacing God and the Holy Trinity we are asking for intercession to the living saints.

If that was true God would have taken down a false witness of Him... I agree with Proto about the EO, RC and OC too...

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks Philothei! I've been praying about all this and I feel more comfortable with the idea that Mary is an intercessor now... I still have a lot of fear to work through but God is helping me. I just hope He would lead me in the right direction

I was thinking how I never have any doubts about asking other Christians to pray for me.. and this doesn't displease God... and when we ask the Saints or our Blessed Mother to pray for us, that's not very different (except that they are in Heaven and their prayers are more powerful than ours).

Do the Orthodox also believe the Blessed Virgin Mary is our Mother? (ie that she was given to us as our Mother when Jesus was on the Cross)

 

[Protoevangel]

Thanks Philothei! I've been praying about all this and I feel more comfortable with the idea that Mary is an intercessor now... I still have a lot of fear to work through but God is helping me. I just hope He would lead me in the right direction

I was thinking how I never have any doubts about asking other Christians to pray for me.. and this doesn't displease God... and when we ask the Saints or our Blessed Mother to pray for us, that's not very different (except that they are in Heaven and their prayers are more powerful than ours).

Do the Orthodox also believe the Blessed Virgin Mary is our Mother? (ie that she was given to us as our Mother when Jesus was on the Cross)

Indeed, yes, she is our mother!

From the Lamentations at the Bier of the Mother of God

Receive, O Mother
from thy children our love
and these hymns and odes to bid thee farewell
which we offer from the depth of our souls.

Leave us not orphaned, O Mother
as thou dost go from earth to heav’n
where thou will be reunited
with thy Son and thy God.​

 

[Philothei]

I am happy to see that you feel more secure now. Yep Theotokos is "alive" as she is with Christ and God now. The idea that the sainst are "dead" and far apart from us is such a "wrong" belief. How can the saints be "dead" if they are alive in Jesus Christ? It is like we deny His resurrection and believe that the Bible is false if we think that they are not with God. Christ did say to the thief that he would be with him in heaven...So humans are indeed alive with Christ in heaven. The idea of "alive" is different from our idea of "alive" but regardless their state of existance is much different than us. The ancient Israelites asked for intercession from the prophets I see nothing different here. I will have to get back to you about the Mother of all of us topic... but I am sure others will respond sooner than me. hehe...

 

[Philothei]

Thanks Proto Just to add that the idea of "mother" though is of course not "literal" but as always it is depicted in our hymnology as to point out that she is indeed the intercessor for us and she cares just like a mother as she does care for all humanity as all saints do... The same applies to the "full of grace" she is full of grace that does not mean that she is lesser than other saints....just we recognize she is "all full of grace" that she is special in her role as the Mother of God. We do not qualify the "how much more" rahter accept she is chosen for the task thus recognizing in that her special calling

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks! God bless!