Orthodox view of purgatory

[Photini]

Now, with regard to your question as to how "how the belief in indulgences could get in the way of Orthodox theology dealing with the Energies of God," I cannot say, because I cannot discern any way in which the notion of indulgences, which Orthodox Christianity does not share, and the energies of God connect. I suppose that one could argue that the superabundant "merits" possessed by Christ -- merits He obviously does not need for Himself -- could be, if one so chose, considered among His "energies," and that one could deduce that those who reject His merits -- unrepentant sinners -- somehow refuse to know God because they refuse to accept His "merits," or something to this effect, but the fact remains that, since in Orthodox theology there is no intersection between God's energies and "merits" -- in part because the whole "merit" thing is foreign -- there is no conflict since the "merit/purgation" thing does not exist in the first place. As I said, if someone chooses to consider "merits" as an "energy" of God -- which Orthodox Christianity wouldn't -- then one could, in the end, deduce that God's "energies" can only become effective or manifest if one chooses to embrace them, but in the end, this would be to say that God's actions/energies/activities can be limited by the human will and require ascent on the part of humans in order to be "activated," or some such bla bla. So I can't really say how belief in indulgences would get in the way of God's energies, since there de facto is no connection in Orthodox theology -- unless I missed something when I was in seminary.


Hope this helps.

Thanks! I guess my question would be, what impact does the Orthodox belief in the Energies of God have on our soteriology?

 

[musicluvr83]

From listening to my bishop speak a few months ago on the differences between the western approach and the Orthodox approach, he said the two approaches speak different languages which are incompatible with each other. I understand this is just 1 bishop speaking.

It's not just your bishop... they are definitely incompatible.

 

[Michael G]

It's not just your bishop... they are definitely incompatible.

It is very difficult to translate between 2 languages (the RC language and the Orthodox language) that have very similar words but those words have totally different meanings. Unless you have an indepth knowledge of both languages alot is going to get lost in the translation.

 

[musicluvr83]

It is very difficult to translate between 2 languages (the RC language and the Orthodox language) that have very similar words but those words have totally different meanings. Unless you have an indepth knowledge of both languages alot is going to get lost in the translation.

Yup! After Fr John sent me what I posted earlier he actually called me a little later on to ensure I got it because of that very reason. Much discretion is needed...and actually the main reason I asked him instead of trying to answer on my own; didn't want to risk the chance of misunderstandings.

 

[musicluvr83]

Thanks! I guess my question would be, what impact does the Orthodox belief in the Energies of God have on our soteriology?

hmm...to put it simply, I'd say tis the starting point because, no matter what, we all have free will.

 

[Michael G]

Yup! After Fr John sent me what I posted earlier he actually called me a little later on to ensure I got it because of that very reason. Much discretion is needed...and actually the main reason I asked him instead of trying to answer on my own; didn't want to risk the chance of misunderstandings.

Fr. John said it very well.

 

[Photini]

hmm...to put it simply, I'd say tis the starting point because, no matter what, we all have free will.

I don't understand.

 

[musicluvr83]

I don't understand.

Oh twas something I was reading on goarch.org about God's energies.

"...While the essence of God is beyond communion, God reveals Himself through His Glory. The human person participates in God's energies manifested as theophanies "The glory of the Triune God embraces the universe (ta pania) and brings all things within the scope of His love." God's glory (doxa, kaboth, shekhina) is revealed to human persons in their true intimate relation as an, end and fulfillment of the original creation of man.

The revealed glory of God - His energies - penetrates all creation and is the starting point for Christian life and hope. This central truth of Christianity was communicated doxologically to Isaiah (6:3), and is articulated in the angelic hymn of the Divine Liturgy which accompanies the prayer noted above: "Holy, Holy, Holy are You the Lord of Hosts, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory." This hymn, on the one hand, expresses the total mystery of God and, on the other, notes that His divine glory and love encompass all forms of life, His entire creation."


I read that and made a reference to what's in bold 'cause while it's the starting point we all have the free will to reject God, etc, etc.

 

[ProScribe]

I'm looking to return to what ancient primitive Christians believed about the soul after death.

 

[musicluvr83]

I'm looking to return to what ancient primitive Christians believed about the soul after death.

Death, The Threshold to Eternal Life — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[Macarius]

I'm looking to return to what ancient primitive Christians believed about the soul after death.

Scripture reveals very little about the intermediary state between death here and the general resurrection.

They definitely did not believe in purgatory in any developed sense of the doctrine. Or at least, if they did, it isn't evidenced in their writings. The closest you get is that the saints were venerated (see the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp) and the departed were prayed for (see the Diary of Perpetua).

Some RCC apologists will use the reference to prayers for the departed as evidence of purgatory - but this depends on accepting purgatory as the ONLY possible explanation for why we pray for the departed. We don't accept it as the only possibility, and as such we don't view prayers for the departed (which we do) as evidence of an intermediary state of purgation.

 

[Dorothea]

There's a lot more debate over there for sure.
But TAW has become stuffy, not nicer, and no longer welcomes honest, open discussion like it once did. If we seem nicer, it's only because we succeed in keeping the people who ruffle our feathers from asking any questions. Once they do, people get cranky and threads start getting locked...much like this one probably will. And NOBODY was challenging Orthodox teaching. Not a single person.

To add my personal experience with OBOB...I got crabby at them a couple of weeks ago when they were discussing the Orthodox Church and passing off a lot of misinformation and speculation as fact. I pointed it out and did not get my head bit off. In fact, someone repped me!

I personally love when people come here and ask questions about Orthodoxy. I enjoy the dialogue.

 

[Photini]

I personally love when people come here and ask questions about Orthodoxy. I enjoy the dialogue.

So do I. And I don't think it is unreasonable for people to try and understand the similarities and differences between Orthodoxy and other branches of Christianity. I also do not think it is unreasonable for an "outsider" to politely point out any misinformation that they perceive might have been given. I do think it is unreasonable for us to get all up in arms and offended about it.

If I have objections to someone else's beliefs based on misinformation, I want to know about it.

 

[Dorothea]

So do I. And I don't think it is unreasonable for people to try and understand the similarities and differences between Orthodoxy and other branches of Christianity. I also do not think it is unreasonable for an "outsider" to politely point out any misinformation that they perceive might have been given. I do think it is unreasonable for us to get all up in arms and offended about it.

If I have objections to someone else's beliefs based on misinformation, I want to know about it.

Totally agree. There's nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Philothei]

Mod hat on
Guys please stay on topic. Do not flame each other. Do not discuss staff actions. If you have a problem with a post DO not respond but report. This is a Congregation Forum and respect the fact it is a safe heaven for the EO. In general let's be careful not to break da roolz ;-)​

Blessed Nativity to everyone
Mod hat off​

 

[Photini]

I apologize for vaguely discussing moderator actions and getting off-topic.

 

[Photini]

From listening to my bishop speak a few months ago on the differences between the western approach and the Orthodox approach, he said the two approaches speak different languages which are incompatible with each other. I understand this is just 1 bishop speaking.

I tend to agree with that bishop. It's like I almost see a connection, and then get lost in the language. It's terribly difficult to line up what's what.

 

[Michael G]

I apologize for vaguely discussing moderator actions and getting off-topic.

Now we must beat you with a wet noodle! Umm, let someone else do that. Pasta is nasty stuff.

 

[FaithPrevails]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has gone through a minor clean up. Please PM me if any of your posts have gone missing and you have any questions about it.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Me either.

I don't have a problem with you guys having a variety of opinions on such things. I do wish that individuals who hold a specific opinion about a topic that has not been officially defined by the Orthodox church wouldn't present their view as being what the "Orthodox" believe. I've run across that issue more than once and it makes it very difficult for someone who is trying to understand to sort it all out when they run into contrary opinions from different Orthodox individuals about what the "Orthodox" believe, and then discover it's not a belief that's ever been officially defined at all.

Hi, narnia.

A difference here is that Catholics are used to everything being defined, listed, categorized, quantified, etc within the Catholic Church, while very, very few things are so "officially defined" within Orthodoxy. So while the great preponderance of Tradition will fall on the side of not categorizing sins, there will be some whose writings may indicate some categories. I suppose it is possible to declare some sins as "deadly" because of their operation on our souls, but even then it is not some hard-and-fast understanding. And on the other side, declaring sins as only "venial" would really be dangerous, because as someone else has already posted, *any* sin can become deadly, no matter how trivial it might seem. And the moment you start classifying sins, that is the moment that they start becoming trivialized in peoples' minds.

Mary