Orthodox View of Heaven and Hell

All4Christ · Mar 3, 2015

I recently came across two articles with very different portrayals of the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell.

One (which I thought was the Orthodox perspective) essentially states that Heaven and Hell are not necessarily two created realities - instead, it is the state of God's love being a reward and wonderful reality for those who love Him and torment and torture for those that reject Him.

The other article I just read from the OCN seems to point to the viewpoint I had when I was a Pentecostal - it basically states that Hell is the absence of God, rather than the torment caused by rejecting God's love.

I thought that the Orthodox opinion was that God's love was everywhere present, and that He is omnipresent - everywhere. I am pasting the URL for the two articles below. Could any of you shed some light on which article accurately presents the Orthodox theology on Heaven and Hell?

Fr. George Metallinos -- Paradise and Hell According to Orthodox Tradition (stating that Heaven and Hell are essentially two reactions to God's love)

Key quotes from 'Paradise and Hell According to Orthodox Tradition:

Paradise and hell are not two different places. Such an idea is an idolatrous concept. Rather they signify two different conditions [ways or states of being], which originate from the same uncreated source, and are perceived by man as two, differing experiences. More precisely, they are the same experience, except that they are perceived differently by man, depending on his internal state.

This experience is the sight of Christ in the uncreated light of His divinity, of His "glory". From the moment of His Second Coming, through to all eternity, all people will be seeing Christ in His uncreated light. That is when "those who worked good deeds in their lifetime will go towards the resurrection of life, while those who worked evil in their lifetime will go towards the resurrection of judgment" (Jn.5:29). In the presence of Christ, mankind will be separated (like "sheep" and "kidgoats", to His right and His left). In other words, they will be discerning in two separate groups: those who will be behold Christ as paradise (the "exceeding good, the radiant") and those who will be looking upon Christ as hell ("the all-consuming fire" of Hebrews 12:29).

Hell and God's Goodness (stating that Hell is the absence of God)

Key quotes from 'Hell and God's Goodness':

Hell is a Clear Biblical Teaching
In many different ways, the New Testament teaches the existence of Hell. It uses many different images and characterizations, but all clearly indicate that after death, there is a situation in which people who simply had no place for God in their lives in this life, will continue that way in the next. Except that since the afterlife consists of either communion with God or no communion with God, the latter is not a pleasant experience, since there is nothing else.

So, for example, those who refuse communion with God are “cast into outer darkness” with “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 25:30, 13:42). Another biblical image of hell is “everlasting fire prepared for the devil, and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). Elsewhere, it is said that these go “into hell (‘Gehenna&#8217 into unquenchable fire.” St. Paul teaches that this becomes a time of God’s just wrath, that brings “tribulation and anguish” (Romans 2:5, 8 and following) or “destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). In the Book of Revelation, the “second death” (the first is the spiritual death in this life) leads to the symbolic description of being cast into a “lake which burns with fire and brimstone.” These characterizations should not be understood literally. We don’t know exactly what either heaven or hell will be like. But these images of hell graphically show us how separation from God is not to be desired.

Thanks for your help!

truefiction1 · Mar 3, 2015

This separation from God is not to be understood in a literal, physical sense. It refers to an inability to ever know God, even if one is fully in the presence of God.

All4Christ · Mar 3, 2015

That makes sense. It helps to put some other verses in context. No matter how long I have been Orthodox - I still often read things in a literal sense, especially when the same words were spoken (with a completely different meaning) in my pre-Orthodox church experiences. Thanks for the clarification!

truefiction1 · Mar 3, 2015

Welcome, you are.

Lukaris · Mar 3, 2015

I think Fr. George (Metallinos) is speaking of the dominant Orthodox understanding of the afterlife in which the individual condition of the saved (eternal joy) & unsaved (eternal anguish) exist in the same reality. Fr. Stanley Harakas leaves the interpretation to mystery (the tradition Fr. George M explains as a possibility among apparently other Orthodox understandings). Both seem consistent in preaching the Orthodoxy of the saving grace of Christ and the role of our free will in accepting or rejecting it. I think since Fr. George reiterates the more expansive preaching, the definition of "hell" is more diffused. Whereas, since Fr. Stanley pauses on a more precise understanding of the afterlife, "hell" might seem more akin to the western concept.

I hope this makes sense.

ArmyMatt · Mar 3, 2015

they both work as far as I can tell. heaven and hell are differing conditions and not "places" as far as our 3D space time experience would have us think. so for those that refuse communion with God, and separate themselves from Him in a relational sense, His presence is the fire that consumes the unworthy.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 4, 2015

I have a really stupid question about all of this? (And forgive me if I've already asked it somewhere - I don't think I have, but if I did I must not have been able to wrap my mind around the answers.)

But the idea of there not being a geographic separation between the realities of hell and heaven (or the restored creation with God openly present) bring a problem to mind. How could the "saved" enjoy such a scenario if we are alongside others who experience God as absolute torment? It is possible some of those might be people we love in this life, but even if they are strangers, if we are truly undergoing/achieving a level of theosis, we should love all men the same, so even a stranger suffering should grieve us as much as our own child being in hell.

So I am having a hard time understanding how that can be "heaven"? It was a problem even as a Protestant, with a separate "hell" - unless God wiped out the memory of unsaved loved ones. But with the Orthodox understanding, it is triply hard to reconcile?

ArmyMatt · Mar 4, 2015

I think there is a spatial difference, it's just not space as we know it now. I agree that the damned are not going to be in agony along side a saint in glory. but I think the point is that what makes heaven or hell is the condition of the person in the face of God.

Decanus · Mar 4, 2015

Perhaps I am over simplifying it but could we say that, in the Eastern view, that being in the presence of God for those who are not saved is sort of like eternal frustration because they are in his presence for eternity, but they have no way of knowing who God really is?

~Anastasia~ · Mar 5, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
I think there is a spatial difference, it's just not space as we know it now. I agree that the damned are not going to be in agony along side a saint in glory. but I think the point is that what makes heaven or hell is the condition of the person in the face of God.

Thank you. I really can't imagine the two side by side. Of course, there is much that we are not explicitly told, but I just can't really imagine it being that way, although that's what some writings imply (and I'm the first to admit that my reading on the Orthodox view of the afterlife is probably more limited than on any other subject).

jckstraw72 · Mar 5, 2015

St. Paisios described it as the saved are inside a brightly lit house at night, and the damned are outside in the dark. the damned can see in through the windows to see the saved, but the saved cannot see out of the windows to see the damned.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 5, 2015

jckstraw72 said:
St. Paisios described it as the saved are inside a brightly lit house at night, and the damned are outside in the dark. the damned can see in through the windows to see the saved, but the saved cannot see out of the windows to see the damned.

That makes a lot of sense too ... Thank you.

Llauralin · Mar 5, 2015

I really like Fr Stephen's take on this question.

gzt · Mar 5, 2015

Llauralin said:
I really like Fr Stephen's take on this question.

Oh wow, I remember you from way back in the day here. Yes that is a good article.

ArmyMatt · Mar 5, 2015

RoxyPops said:
Perhaps I am over simplifying it but could we say that, in the Eastern view, that being in the presence of God for those who are not saved is sort of like eternal frustration because they are in his presence for eternity, but they have no way of knowing who God really is?

I think it's more like eternal frustration because they cannot escape the love of God, which is what they want to escape from. no matter where they go, He is there.

RileyG · Mar 6, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
they both work as far as I can tell. heaven and hell are differing conditions and not "places" as far as our 3D space time experience would have us think. so for those that refuse communion with God, and separate themselves from Him in a relational sense, His presence is the fire that consumes the unworthy.

So Hell's fire is a fire of torment and heaven's fire is a fire of peace, warmth and consolation?

The "fire and brimstone" view is un-Orthodox, correct?

ArmyMatt · Mar 6, 2015

RileyG said:
So Hell's fire is a fire of torment and heaven's fire is a fire of peace, warmth and consolation?

The "fire and brimstone" view is un-Orthodox, correct?

yep, it's the same fire. it's the fire of the glory and presence of God, which in Scripture is always shown as fire (tongues of fire, burning bush, pillar of fire, etc. the lake of fire is no different). fire and brimstone can be Orthodox, if we understand it to be the torment of the presence of God in the face of the sinner.

the fire and brimstone is un-Orthodox if we understand it to be some lava pit in the physical earth, where demons stab the damned with pitchforks.

ArmyMatt · Mar 6, 2015

jckstraw72 said:
St. Paisios described it as the saved are inside a brightly lit house at night, and the damned are outside in the dark. the damned can see in through the windows to see the saved, but the saved cannot see out of the windows to see the damned.

I am pretty sure Fr Epiphanios at St Nektarios one of the times we went said that the saved are so filled with God's love and love for Him, that the condition of the damned don't even enter their minds. sorta like how if you are at a party with a someone you really have a crush on, you don't even pay attention to the rest of the party when you start talking to him/her.

Ceridwen · Mar 7, 2015

The nature of heaven and hell are a mystery. So is the determination of who will experience one or the other.

All4Christ · Mar 9, 2015

Thank you everyone! I Haven't had time to formulate a thorough response (crazy time lately!) but have been reading everything you all have said...definitely helps a lot! My brother was exploring this as well (not Orthodox or even Christian at the moment, but he likes to explore different theologies, even if it is a more advanced subject) and he stumbled across an article that said that the flames of the fire with Shadrac, Mishac and Abendego were representative of the fire of God, hence why they weren't hurt. Which begs the question - does the Orthodox Chirch take the story as a literal story, a figurative, or one of the "it supports the tntology of the church and is prescribed by the Church to be scripture so it doesn't really matter if it is literal or figurative"? This isn't a critical question - but he was asking me about it, and I'm curious now. I didn't have a great answer except to say I'm not sure exactly in what context it is true, but I know it is beneficial and important for our faith. Thanks everyone! I will respond more about all your answers soon. They all have helped significantly! Makes a lot more sense.

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