Orthodox view of Christ's sacrifice

[countrymousenc]

That's the same thing we believe.

We're waiting to welcome y'all home; just say when!

 

[Lotar]

We're waiting to welcome y'all home; just say when!

If it were only so simple

You know as well as I that we will never give up Ambrose, Augustine, Luther, Melanchthon, Chemnitz, etc.

 

[Philip]

If it were only so simple

You know as well as I that we will never give up Ambrose, Augustine, Luther, Melanchthon, Chemnitz, etc.

You can keep Sts Ambrose and Augustine

 

[Lotar]

You can keep Sts Ambrose and Augustine

Not from the tone of a lot of the posts I read around here

One day you will come to recognize our saints

 

[Oblio]

One day you will come to recognize our saints

Trust me, we Orthodox can outwait anyone

 

[Reader Nilus]

There is Lotar a Lutheran Saint that I venerate the Martyr Kaj Munk.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Oblio]

... There is Lotar a Lutheran Saint that I venerate ...

 

[Lotar]

There is Lotar a Lutheran Saint that I venerate the Martyr Kaj Munk.
Jeff the Finn

Cool

Too bad we haven't added any days to the church calendar for the WW2 martyrs yet. It'll probably take another 50 years, we move slow.

 

[Lotar]

Don't venerate me yet, I'm not dead!

 

[Reader Nilus]

For those who do not know who Kaj Munk is. He was a Danish Lutheran priest and playwrite. On Jan.4, 1944 he was taken by the Nazis after the church service and was later found shot to death in a ditch. Kaj Munk got the Nazis angry because he told his parish to continue to pray for the captive Norwegian Church. His play He Sits at the Melting Pot did not go over to well with them either. Which was about a team finding an authenic picture of Jesus, which clearly showed he was a Jewish Man.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Lotar]

Jeff,
Is he recognized by the Orthodox Church?

 

[Reader Nilus]

No, but I have always venerated Kaj Munk from the time I learned about him when I was in high school. I was a Lutheran for most of my life, and I consider him a Holy Martyr. In fact I think he was more of a martyr than Dietrich Bonhoeffer, because he engaged in no violence what so ever to bring about his killing.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Suzannah]

Cool

Too bad we haven't added any days to the church calendar for the WW2 martyrs yet. It'll probably take another 50 years, we move slow.

You know, some things are just "indisputable".

Lotar, if you have time, I would love to hear about your Lutheran, WW2 saints...I love WW2 history...especially the sailors of WW2 and by the way, here's a compliment to Luther and Lutherans from my priest:
"If you're going to look into private schools for your daughter, check out the Lutheran school. They're very close..."

 

[Lotar]

You know, some things are just "indisputable".

Lotar, if you have time, I would love to hear about your Lutheran, WW2 saints...I love WW2 history...especially the sailors of WW2 and by the way,

Sorry, I'm sure Jeff knows a lot more than I do

There's Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a pastor and theologian. He was outspoken against the Nazis and Hitler, and had a radio broadcast cut off after critisizing the German people for taking up "the furor" as an idol. He was eventually arrested and was hanged in a concentration camp. A prison doctor said of Bonhoeffer before he was hanged, "I was most deeply moved by the way this lovable man prayed. So devout and so certain that God heard his prayer". He's probably the most well known.

My mind is blanking right now, too much homework There are a couple more guys I can think of, but I can't for the life of me think of their names. Maybe I'll remember by tomorrow.

here's a compliment to Luther and Lutherans from my priest:
"If you're going to look into private schools for your daughter, check out the Lutheran school. They're very close..."

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Don't venerate me yet, I'm not dead!

Oh geez! Now what am I going to do with that Icon I wrote of you?

*FROWNS, AND TOSSES ICON OF LOTAR IN TRASH*

 

[Reader Nilus]

Another Lutheran Saint of the Nazi era is Martin Niemoeller, He ended up in Dauchau, from which he was liberated by the allies in 1945. He spent 7 years in the camps and was up for execution but the allies liberated Dauchau, before that happened. The below quote is from Martin Niemoeller.
"In Germany, they first came for the gypsies, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a gypsy. Then they came for the Bolsheviks, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Bolshevik. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics. I didn't speak up then because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up."
Jeff the Finn

 

[Rilian]

The legacy of Bonhoeffer is somewhat mixed. He certainly made a courageous stand against the Reich, there can be no denying that. However, in his Letters and Papers from Prison he seemed to be slipping into some seriously unconventional ideas about Christianity. Some of these ideas have been picked up and used/abused by some extremely liberal Protestant writers. He was killed, so he was never able to further develop or clarify where he was going with his ideas.

There were others such as Niemoller who stood up to the Nazis and there was the Barmen Declaration of Barth and Asmussen which stands as a lasting testimony to Christians who were unwilling to accept the abrogation of Christianity by the Nazis. The sad and painful history though is that most German Christians did not stand up or were directly complicit in the actions of the Reich. One of the propaganda tools used by the Nazis as well was the body of hideously anti-semitic writing that came directly from Luther's pen.

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Hello Jeff and Lotar

Another Lutheran Saint

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but do Lutherans venerate saints as the Orthodox and Roman Catholics do?

Your brother in XC,
Rick

 

[Lotar]

Hello Jeff and Lotar



Sorry if this is a stupid question, but do Lutherans venerate saints as the Orthodox and Roman Catholics do?

Your brother in XC,
Rick

Somewhat. We keep the Church calendar and have feast and commemoration days for the different saints, sing the Magnificat, etc. It is our veiw that Roman Catholics take veneration too far, though I'm sure that the Orthodox would say we don't do enough. Things like prayer to saints isn't something our Church either encourages or discourages, though it's not terribly uncommon for someone to do so.