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Orthodox position on evolution?

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Vance

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Here are some bits and pieces from Eastern Orthodoxy (who revere the early church fathers more than anyone else, for those who tend to base their theology on such teaching) regarding evolution and science that you might be interested in:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/ort_creation.htm

and:

The Rt. Rev. Maximos Aghiorgoussis, Th.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh writes, "Among the visible things that God created is the crown of His creation, man. In Genesis we read the story of God's creation. We cannot interpret this story to the letter; however, its message is loud and clear: God is the creator of everything that exists; there is order in God's creation, and a development (even "evolution") from lower forms to higher forms of life; God created everything good; man, created in God's image and likeness, has a very special place in God's creation, called to be God's proxy toward His creation."
An article by Rev. George Mastrantonis seems to be no longer available on the website. In the article, Rev. Mastrantonis stated, "The theory of evolution does not contradict the existence of a Supreme Intelligent Being. It does not dismiss the existence of God with a Design and Purpose for the Creation. The Judaic-Christian concept of God accepts any truth from any aspect of life without fear of losing its faith in God as a Supreme Intelligent Being" Rev. Mastrantonis does express some concern regarding any concept of evolution which excludes a creator.

and here:

In answer to a question, Fr. John Matusiak states, "Orthodoxy is not literalist in its understanding of the accounts of creation in Genesis, and I have encountered writings by Orthodox Christians which attempt to balance the creation accounts with a certain ongoing -- evolutionary, if you will -- process which, on the one hand, affirms that while humans may have evolved physically under the direction and guidance and plan of the Creator, their souls could not have evolved any more than the powers of reasoning, speaking, or the ability to act creatively could have simply evolved. In such a scenario the Creator intervened by breathing His Spirit into man and giving him life, as stated in Genesis...Orthodoxy has no problem with evolution as a scientific theory, only with evolution -- as some people may view it -- eliminating the need for God as Creator of All."



And here, although the qoute is not cited:




The Greek Orthodox Church (the oldest) does accept evolution as fact and attributes this "Six Day Creationism" that is limited mainly to the United States to mistranslation and politics. Quoting one Eastern Orthodox writer:

The reason for the persistence of the fundamentalists, which makes this not merely a privately held belief, is social. It is only in our current situation of fin de siecle (the end of the age) that it became possible to come into open conflict with scientific data. At the end of this century statements contrary to science have become fashionable. Astrologers, fortunetellers, magicians, and other occultists are free to say the most bizarre things. It seems that people are tired of scientific sobriety and responsibility and are ready to accept anything — "Why not?" The purest form of voluntarism and irrationality takes the place of argumentation: "This is what I feel! This is so exciting!" This massive ecstasy by irrationality makes also Protestant literalness completely into sellable goods... Views and opinions of radical creationists can not be accepted because they use scientific data in an arbitrary and non-objective way, by which they produce fair objections from those who are professionally involved in science. There is a real danger here that a biologist, having read some arrogant creationist book, will apply the word "rubbish" to Christianity in general.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/evolution_debate.htm

and another:

"Over 120 years have passed since the publication of Charles Darwin’s Origin of the Species. While some scientists still agree with Darwin’s theory of the changeability of species, much discovery has been done since then to create doubt and suspicion among them. The conflict between creationism and evolution has been primarily a struggle between Roman Catholics and Protestants, on the one hand, with scientists, on the other. You will find very little writing in Orthodox Christian circles.
Primarily this is because the Eastern Fathers, generally speaking, did not take a fundamentalist viewpoint of creation. For example, Vladimir Lossky, a great Orthodox theologian of the past century, says in his famous book, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, “The Church always freely makes use of philosophy and the sciences for apologetic (explanatory) purposes, but she never has any cause to defend these relative and changing truths as she defends the unchangeable truth of her doctrines.”

Eastern Orthodox theology finds not real argument with evolution up to the creation of man. And even in that, there is a possibility of accepting some of what has been discovered and continues to be discovered by science. For example, Moses, the author of the Book of Genesis, is writing to illiterate people who are asking some sobering questions while they are wandering all over the Sinai desert for some forty years. He uses a picture language and frames of reference with which they can identify. Nonetheless, the language does not take away from the meaning.

With the exception of verses 11, 12 and 13 of chapter one, the Genesis version follows basically along the theory of evolution.

Creation of Man

There are two references to the creation of man in Genesis. The first one is the simple statement made in verse 26 of chapter one:

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in Our own image, after Our likeness…” and is restated in verse 27: “So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

The second reference is in chapter two, verse 7:

“Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

In Orthodox theology, the two words ”image” and “likeness” are not used interchangeably as they are for Roman Catholics and Protestants. For Orthodox Christians, “image” denotes the powers and faculties with which every human being is endowed by God from the first moment of his existence. “Likeness” is the assimilation, the growth process to God through virtue and grace. We call this growth process “theosis.” For Western theology, man was created perfect in the absolute sense and therefore, when he fell, he fell completely away from God. For Orthodox theology, man was created perfect in the potential sense.

Thus, for example, Ireneus, a Church Father of the Second century, in speaking about creation of Adam and Eve says, “They were a child not yet having their understanding perfected.”

Father John Romanides, a contemporary Orthodox theologian says “Adam and Eve were two children born who were protected by nature and the animal world through the Holy Spirit.”

Did we evolve from the water? The infant does live a period of development in his mother’s womb which is a liquid world. It is only outside the mother’s womb that the lungs breathe as they were designed to breathe and function.

Did we evolve from animals? Ancient men did not look like us. In fact, they might shudder to see the form and the appearance we, their descendents, have taken!

Even Modern Science agrees that at some point man took on something that made him different from the animal world … he became a rational being (think, discern, evaluate, decide and act).

Should Modern Science be able to prove without the shadow of a doubt that man evolved from amoeba, reptiles, animal life into what he is today, Orthodox theology would be able to make the transitional acceptance far more readily than Western theology for all the reasons stated above.

Plantlife dies! Animal life dies! Man dies, too! But he goes on living! We cannot ask “Where we came from?” without asking “Where are we going?”

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/nicozisin_creationism.htm
 

Vance

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several modern Orthodox Saints and holy elders have specifically wrote or spoken against evolution, but i know of no Saints who have accepted it.
Well, saints or not, it seems that there is, indeed, a significant divergence of thought within the Orthodox Church as shown by the contradictory nature of our two sources. For all of those Orthodox who seem to accept the concept of evolution, is it because they read the Church Fathers and Saints differently, or do you suppose they just ignore the teachings of those Fathers and Saints? I honestly don't know enough about the Orthodox Church to know how far an Orthodox is likely to vary from others on such matters.
 
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jckstraw72

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Well, saints or not, it seems that there is, indeed, a significant divergence of thought within the Orthodox Church as shown by the contradictory nature of our two sources. For all of those Orthodox who seem to accept the concept of evolution, is it because they read the Church Fathers and Saints differently, or do you suppose they just ignore the teachings of those Fathers and Saints? I honestly don't know enough about the Orthodox Church to know how far an Orthodox is likely to vary from others on such matters.

my viewpoint is that most havent read the Fathers, such as the average laity, and the rest misread the Fathers so that they can force evolution into their interpretations. to think that the Fathers are compatible with evolution requires quite the leap methinks. ppl are wooed by the "evidence" they are presented with and assume that it must true, therefore they try to force it upon the Fathers, rather than accepting science that agrees with the Fathers.
 
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Vance

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my viewpoint is that most havent read the Fathers, such as the average laity, and the rest misread the Fathers so that they can force evolution into their interpretations. to think that the Fathers are compatible with evolution requires quite the leap methinks. ppl are wooed by the "evidence" they are presented with and assume that it must true, therefore they try to force it upon the Fathers, rather than accepting science that agrees with the Fathers.
It seems as though it is not just the laity, from the quotes above, but many of the clergy as well.

On the issue of which "science" to choose, I would think that you could not just accept science that agrees with the Fathers since they did not know what we know. I suppose you could insist upon only accepting scientific conclusions that are consistent with the Fathers' interpretation of Scripture, but there is enough diversity in the whole "literal/figurative" thing to create some issues with that. If you looked at my essay on Augustine in the other thread, I think he would be a theistic evolutionist if he were alive today! :0)

Of course, as a Protestant, I take the Church Fathers as helpful, but not conclusive. We actually have a better idea of how the ancient Israelites would have read the early Genesis texts than they did, so we have some insight that might have changed their perspective somewhat.

But I do know that the Orthodox feel differently about the Church Fathers, so I don't want to disrespect how you may feel about their positions.
 
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jckstraw72

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It seems as though it is not just the laity, from the quotes above, but many of the clergy as well.

i was saying its generally laity that havent read the Fathers on this subject. I would assume the clergy have.

St. Augustine was above all obedient to the Church. he said that if anything he teaches is inconsistent with the Church then ignore him and listen to the Church -- I think he would look to what's always been taught were he alive today.
 
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Vance

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i was saying its generally laity that havent read the Fathers on this subject. I would assume the clergy have.

St. Augustine was above all obedient to the Church. he said that if anything he teaches is inconsistent with the Church then ignore him and listen to the Church -- I think he would look to what's always been taught were he alive today.
But, of course, his Church today accepts evolution. That is why I say he would likely be a theistic evolutionist.
 
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jckstraw72

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But, of course, his Church today accepts evolution. That is why I say he would likely be a theistic evolutionist.
well i dont think you can say that. the Church "accepted" Arianism in the early 4th century but the truth prevailed. The Church also had many iconoclasts at one time but the truth prevailed. People like Fr. Seraphim and St. Nektarios before him are proclaiming the truth which will win out.

and the Church doesnt change ... St. Augustine would never accept a change I dont think.
 
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Vance

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well i dont think you can say that. the Church "accepted" Arianism in the early 4th century but the truth prevailed. The Church also had many iconoclasts at one time but the truth prevailed. People like Fr. Seraphim and St. Nektarios before him are proclaiming the truth which will win out.

and the Church doesnt change ... St. Augustine would never accept a change I dont think.
But he was a Catholic, from the western, "Latin" tradition, and that Church currently accepts evolution and shows no sign of altering this position. I don't see why he would refuse to accept the Church's teaching on this point, and of course, the Catholic Church would not describe this as a "change" at all, but simply a deeper understanding of what was already revealed. Add that to Augustine's exegetical approach (as I show in my essay) and I don't think he would stray from the Church's teaching. In fact, were he around, he would probably be the one writing the encyclical! :0)
 
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jckstraw72

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But he was a Catholic, from the western, "Latin" tradition, and that Church currently accepts evolution and shows no sign of altering this position. I don't see why he would refuse to accept the Church's teaching on this point, and of course, the Catholic Church would not describe this as a "change" at all, but simply a deeper understanding of what was already revealed. Add that to Augustine's exegetical approach (as I show in my essay) and I don't think he would stray from the Church's teaching. In fact, were he around, he would probably be the one writing the encyclical! :0)

well just because he was in the West doesnt mean he would be Catholic today. Of course my view is that the Church was all Orthodox then, and so was St. Augustine.
 
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Vance

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well just because he was in the West doesnt mean he would be Catholic today. Of course my view is that the Church was all Orthodox then, and so was St. Augustine.
Ah, yes, that could be, I was just going by geography and cultural persuasion.
 
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juvenissun

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But he was a Catholic, from the western, "Latin" tradition, and that Church currently accepts evolution and shows no sign of altering this position. I don't see why he would refuse to accept the Church's teaching on this point, and of course, the Catholic Church would not describe this as a "change" at all, but simply a deeper understanding of what was already revealed. Add that to Augustine's exegetical approach (as I show in my essay) and I don't think he would stray from the Church's teaching. In fact, were he around, he would probably be the one writing the encyclical! :0)
Evolution is a scientific theory. The study of it is a career for many many intelligent scientists. It is a well constructed scientific monster. People in church or in religion are not able to question the theory in a sensible way, and are, most likely, impressed and intimidated by the abundant "evidences" presented by evolution. What they said (no matter who, even the Pope), and whatever position they take in favor of the theory of evolution should not be credited. They either do not know what they are talking about, or what they said were misquoted and misinterpreted.

If they did make mistake, it is unfortunate for them. They should consult with people in ICR or AiG and know better.

Bless be with those who do not understand evolution, but reject it.
 
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theFijian

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juvenissun said:
Bless be with those who do not understand evolution, but reject it.
juve, I appreciate that english may not be your mother tongue, but do you actually read what you type before posting? A lot of the time I find your posts confusing and self-contradictory.
 
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Vance

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Evolution is a scientific theory. The study of it is a career for many many intelligent scientists. It is a well constructed scientific monster. People in church or in religion are not able to question the theory in a sensible way, and are, most likely, impressed and intimidated by the abundant "evidences" presented by evolution. What they said (no matter who, even the Pope), and whatever position they take in favor of the theory of evolution should not be credited. They either do not know what they are talking about, or what they said were misquoted and misinterpreted.

If they did make mistake, it is unfortunate for them. They should consult with people in ICR or AiG and know better.

Bless be with those who do not understand evolution, but reject it.
Very presumptuous and arrogant of you.

Do you know what the word "hubris" means? Creationists tend to be full of it.

The idea that AiG or ICR being able to provide ANYTHING useful to a real scientist is a pretty bizarre concept.
 
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juvenissun

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juve, I appreciate that english may not be your mother tongue, but do you actually read what you type before posting? A lot of the time I find your posts confusing and self-contradictory.
Confusion is relative.

Self-contradiction? Not likely.

If you think what I said: "I do, and I don't" qualified for both, that is because you do not understand. This is an example on the beauty of literalism.
 
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juvenissun

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Very presumptuous and arrogant of you.

Do you know what the word "hubris" means? Creationists tend to be full of it.

The idea that AiG or ICR being able to provide ANYTHING useful to a real scientist is a pretty bizarre concept.
YOU, as a Christian, lack of confidence.

The Scripture says many times Creation, but not one time Evolution. Why do you add Evolution to your faith?

There are billions non-Christians. Is that an overwhelm evidence to discredit Christian faith?
 
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Vance

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YOU, as a Christian, lack of confidence.

The Scripture says many times Creation, but not one time Evolution. Why do you add Evolution to your faith?

There are billions non-Christians. Is that an overwhelm evidence to discredit Christian faith?
No, it is because I have extreme confidence in the truth of Scripture that I am willing to allow Scripture to be written in whatever genre or literary style that God chooses, and not insist that it be written in the style I prefer. I do not proclaim "if the Bible is not written in the literal historical narrative style I find most comfortable and compelling, I will refuse to believe it!" It is distressing that so many creationist are, in essence, saying this.

The Scripture says Creation over and over, but I don't think it says anything at all, if read properly, about whether God did it via special creation or evolution or whether He did it 6,000 years ago or billions of years ago. So, in the absence so any absolute statement in Scripture, I choose to go with what God has revealed to us in His Creation itself.

I do not add evolution to my Christian faith at all. Would you say you have added photosynthesis to your Christian faith? Why do you accept that natural process without any reference to God anywhere? Scripture does not mention photosynthesis, so why do you accept it? I accept evolution because it makes sense based on the evidence from Creation in the same way I accept gravity, photosynthesis and dozens, if not hundreds, of other scientific principles and concepts and theories that you accept as well.

And, no, the billions of non-Christians have no impact on my Christian faith since they have no evidence or even persuasive arguments why my Christian faith is not valid. Unlike the complete falsification of creation science.
 
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juvenissun

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I do not add evolution to my Christian faith at all. Would you say you have added photosynthesis to your Christian faith?

Yes, I think you do, and all TEers in this forum do. It seems if the evolution is proven wrong, then you will lose your faith. You do not even question if it could be wrong or not. You simply "believe" it is true.

I don't really care about any science knowledge. Whatever we know, it would be wrong anyway (include evolution, gravity, what have you). We only use science to train ourselves.
 
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