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Orthodox Perspective on the Immaculate conception of Mary!

Michael G

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that is a strawman.

the issue is really original sin.

No, the issue really is the Roman concept of "developement of doctrine." They take the original deposit of faith and add to it and add to it and claim that the seeds of their thinking was contained in the apostolic teaching. This is unorthodox and often leads to their teaching spiraling out of controll and into heresy.
 
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Kristos

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No, it is not a strawman. If Mary was born of some special, super human way, then there was no ability for Christ to be born of a woman, because that would have made Mary super-woman. And if Christ was not born of a woman, he was not human in his human nature, but super human. Without Christ's human nature he did not save man for only man could save man.

Making the strawman larger only makes it an easier target.

Shall we post this in OBOB and see what they say?
 
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Michael G

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Making the strawman larger only makes it an easier target.

Shall we post this in OBOB and see what they say?

I was a Roman Catholic seminarian prior to converting to Orthodoxy. I honestly do not have a single concern with what your average Catholic has to say about what their Church teaches.
 
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D

Dostoevsky

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Is this a barrier to union? Perhaps, but a minor one, probably ranked below unleavened bread...

Not to get too off topic...but that is NOT a barrier to union. The Western Rite already uses unleavened bread, and (at least from what my Bishop has said) that is completely Orthodox.

Ok, that was definitely off topic. It just annoys me when people assume that just because it's not 19th-Century Russia Orthodox :)P), it can't be Orthodox.
 
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Barky

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that is a strawman.

the issue is really original sin. The IC of the RCC actually brings them back to the Orthodox belief that Mary is the Theotokos, Ever-Virgin, without sin, spotless. Orthodox theology does not really explain HOW this happened, but certainly is was through grace, otherwise, Mary saved herself. The main difference I see here is the the RCC fills Mary with grace right from the beginning - this does not mean that her nature was different from our, otherwise, the same would apply to other grace filled saints; while Orthodox would see a perfected process of theosis, a growth through grace, so that at the time of the Annunciation, Mary was "full of grace" but we didn't necessarily pin point exactly when this happened. Another issue that must be considered are the theophanies of Christ in the OT and the encompassing of Mary's Ever-Virginity wrt those appearances.

Is this a barrier to union? Perhaps, but a minor one, probably ranked below unleavened bread...

I know you're trying to draw a distinction between original sin and IC, but I fail to see how you can separate the two. The IC only makes sense when original is sin is understood as the Romans understand it. Without original sin, the dogma is just absurd.

There is a distinct difference here between Mary being full of Grace and born differently from the rest of humanity.

The two problems with the doctrine of IC seem to go like this:

1. Original sin is simply false. We are not stained with adam's guilt on our soul as a child (nor are we baptized to 'remove this sin' from our infant souls, different topic though). We are born into a broken world, we inherit the consequences of sin, not the guilt. Extremely important distinction to make.

2. Now, Mary being conceived without this original sin (besides being an absurdity if you refute original sin) seems to make her 'super-human', just like some have said here. It makes it seem as though Christ was not born of another human and God, but of some kind of person over and above humanity. She doesn't share our nature (this is the worry, I really don't worry too much about this because the argument stops cold once original sin is refuted.). From this (partially), we Orthodox see some worrisome teachings on Mary from the Catholics, not to mention the prayers.

So, I hope this is illuminating to some people. Some of these distinctions people are trying to make are wrapped up too tightly in each other to pull apart.

so, if we say something like "the problem isn't really the IC per se", we are not talking about the same IC the Catholics do, even though we are using the same words. It would have to be something like Mary being blessd in a particular way from Birth, not some kind of change in nature.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I was a Roman Catholic seminarian prior to converting to Orthodoxy. I honestly do not have a single concern with what your average Catholic has to say about what their Church teaches.

As well you shouldn't. I have known too many Catholics who don't even know what the IC is talking about.
 
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Z

zhilan

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As well you shouldn't. I have known too many Catholics who don't even know what the IC is talking about.

This is so true! I was told by my high school religion teacher, who was a former Catholic priest, that the IC referred to Jesus' conception. I had to bring in the Catechism to prove it to him that it was actually about Mary.:doh:
 
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ikonographics

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Well said Barky!
That is the whole problem with IC. It removes Mary from humanity, since she was conceived in a different way. It means that Christ's humanity, that he received from her is not the same as ours and as a consequence our humanity cannot be healed of the consequences of original sin (corruption and death). The consequences of the IC affect our very salvation.
 
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Michael G

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Well said Barky!
That is the whole problem with IC. It removes Mary from humanity, since she was conceived in a different way. It means that Christ's humanity, that he received from her is not the same as ours and as a consequence our humanity cannot be healed of the consequences of original sin (corruption and death). The consequences of the IC affect our very salvation.

Yeah, the consequences of the IC put the whole Incarnation in jeaprody, and without the Incarnation there was no redemption on the Cross.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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Kristos

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Well said Barky!
That is the whole problem with IC. It removes Mary from humanity, since she was conceived in a different way. It means that Christ's humanity, that he received from her is not the same as ours and as a consequence our humanity cannot be healed of the consequences of original sin (corruption and death). The consequences of the IC affect our very salvation.

This is an incorrect representation of the IC.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Who said we were born sinful?

if we are not born sinful, then what is the problem with Mary being conceived without sin? :) and if we are born sinful, then how is it a problem for Mary to be conceived without sin if being sinless doesn't not take away from being fully human (as we can see with Christ, who was sinless in any case)?
 
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