Orthodox Perspective on the Immaculate conception of Mary!

[lankyknight1990]

Anyone?

 

[Kristos]

It is foreign to Orthodox theology.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Didn't happen. Made-up Roman Catholic theology.

/thread

 

[Blackknight]

No such thing.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Completely unnecessary when "original sin" is understood correctly.

Mary

 

[Imitatio Dei]

Mary, do you mean the idea that we didn't inherit Adam's guilt, but that the original sin transformed the reality of human existence (the introduction of sin)? Just curious as to what you mean.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Yes, that there was no "stain" that needed to be removed from the Theotokos when she was born. God didn't need to do anything "special" with her in order for her to bear the God-Man Jesus Christ. She was born as we all are born, which makes her complete obedience to God throughout her life just that much more special.

Most Holy Theotokos, by thy prayers save us!

Mary

 

[vanshan]

Mary was born just as we are all born, without any guilt of sin. We are still born under the curse of the fall, but there is no such thing as being guilty of another person's sin--that's a Roman Catholic corruption of the proper understanding of man. We are born innocent and good, yet into a fallen world in which we will all become guilty of sin.

This is a higher view of Mary, because as we understand her greatness, she was exactly like us all, in her fallen human condition, but never committed any willful sins. This earns her even greater accolades, since she had no special advantage to help her.

As was said, a correct athropology negates any need for the false-doctrine introduced by the RCC. Having adopted their idea of original sin, they had to find a way to exept Mary from it, thus came the idea of the immaculate conception.

Basil

 

[Kristos]

I don't think it's black and white. Certainly, there are elements of the IC that are foreign to Orthodox. One could say that although not taught by Orthodox (except maybe St Dimitri of Rostov) it has not been condemned either. Some, like Bishop Ware have even gone so far as to say that an Orthodox person could believe in the IC and remain Orthodox (The Orthodox Church). Most would not go that far, but certainly one can see that the issue is somewhat nebulous.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Some, like Bishop Ware have even gone so far as to say that an Orthodox person could believe in the IC and remain Orthodox (The Orthodox Church).

From where except the Romans would one even get such an idea, though? And where is it in the liturgical cycle? (Seriously, do correct me if something points to it; that wasn't entirely hypothetical.)

 

[Kristos]

From where except the Romans would one even get such an idea, though? And where is it in the liturgical cycle? (Seriously, do correct me if something points to it; that wasn't entirely hypothetical.)

You could ask +Ware - it's his statement, not mine.

We do celebrate the Nativity of the Theotokos on Sep 8:

Kontakion (Tone 4)
By Your Nativity, O Most Pure Virgin, Joachim and Anna are freed from barrenness; Adam and Eve, from the corruption of death. And we, your people, freed from the guilt of sin, celebrate and sing to you: The barren woman gives birth to the Theotokos, the nourisher of our life!

 

[ikonographics]

Kristos, we are freed from the guilt of our personal sins, not Adam and Eve's. The kontakion has nothing to do with the IC, and was composed centuries before the dogma was even conceived.

 

[Michael G]

It is heretical. The Immaculate Conception of Mary teaches that Mary was coneived without sin in order to spare her soul the stain of sin. It is based on an errant understanding of the sin of Adam and how it effects man. And further, the Immaculate Conception of Mary is the first in a line of doctrines which come very close to deifying Mary and making her the 4th person of the Trinity.

 

[Michael G]

I don't think it's black and white. Certainly, there are elements of the IC that are foreign to Orthodox. One could say that although not taught by Orthodox (except maybe St Dimitri of Rostov) it has not been condemned either. Some, like Bishop Ware have even gone so far as to say that an Orthodox person could believe in the IC and remain Orthodox (The Orthodox Church). Most would not go that far, but certainly one can see that the issue is somewhat nebulous.

Then Kalistos Ware would be a borderline heretic because the doctrine of the IC is heretical.

 

[Michael G]

Kristos, we are freed from the guilt of our personal sins, not Adam and Eve's. The kontakion has nothing to do with the IC, and was composed centuries before the dogma was even conceived.

Rome did not declare the Immaculate Conception of Mary until the middle 19th Century-at which time Fr. Vasily Vasilievich was crying outrage!!!

 

[buzuxi02]

Orthodoxy teaches that the Theotokos was born from a lineage of holy people, She was one of her own race and one with her own descendants. Her holiness is alike St John the Baptist and St Nicholas.
As far as bishop Kallistos i do consider him borderline heretical and am surprised no one has broken communion with him.

 

[Michael G]

Orthodoxy teaches that the Theotokos was born from a lineage of holy people, She was one of her own race and one with her own descendants. Her holiness is alike St John the Baptist and St Nicholas.
As far as bishop Kallistos i do consider him borderline heretical and am surprised no one has broken communion with him.

Rome teaches that the Theotokos had a special type of conception which sets her apart from mankind. That teaching raises ALL KINDS of problems dealing with the incarnation and with Mary as well.

 

[Kristos]

Kristos, we are freed from the guilt of our personal sins, not Adam and Eve's. The kontakion has nothing to do with the IC, and was composed centuries before the dogma was even conceived.

lex orandi, lex credendi

Kontakion (Tone 3)
Today the Virgin Theotokos Mary The bridal chamber of the Heavenly Bridegroom By the will of God is born of a barren woman, Being prepared as the chariot of God the Word. She was fore-ordained for this, since she is the divine gate and the true Mother of Life.

 

[Michael G]

lex orandi, lex credendi

Kontakion (Tone 3)
Today the Virgin Theotokos Mary The bridal chamber of the Heavenly Bridegroom By the will of God is born of a barren woman, Being prepared as the chariot of God the Word. She was fore-ordained for this, since she is the divine gate and the true Mother of Life.

I am sorry, no where in that Kontakion is anything CLOSE to the Immaculate Conception proclaimed.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Kristos,

I don't see anything about the IC in that kontakion. Of course she was prepared to be the Mother of God, but through her own free will. That's another problem with the IC - it would have been done before her consent to "let it be done unto me according to Thy word".

If God had wanted to free a devout woman from "original sin", He could have chosen from among many. Rather, He waited for Abraham's seed to "bear fruit" - Mary, who was found worthy because of her pure heart.

Mary