Orthodox MJs

[P_G]

Please do not read anything into this, but in the reorganization of PRE there is an Anabaptist Forum.

Yes I know
well actually it is a Baptist / Anabaptist fora
and while I love my Baptist bretheren dearly
if you think this has been a theological argument
wait till the Mennonites and the SBC mix it up!

No what I was saying is much Toney as you recently changed your faith Icon I think it may be time for me to change mine also. I have made no firm decisions on this yet. But I cannot sport some generic Christian Icon either.

For those who don't know the intimate history of the Mennonites you might be surprised that they always were and remain fiersly Zionist.

So thats the scoop.

PG

 

[Toney]

G-d revealed His infinitely wise plan via the means of the Judaic faith. To try to understand G-d through another faith will only lead to an askew view.

And, as a Christian I can say with some authority, this is IMO one of the great failings of the Church. I can also say I understand why it happened.

A Light to the Nations is a difficult calling, but G-d has given Jews the grace to live up to that calling and has rewarded them (Israel) for doing so. Yet, ask a Christian what "Light to the Nations" means and you will be told, Jesus.

Yes and no. There is unwritten theology amongst the Messianic Jewish Movement and in its approach to Christianity the conversation must begin thusly:

"No, no! You have got it wrong because you fail to realise that we are that solid foundation upon which your house was built."

How, in Heaven's name, do you graft a branch onto an uprooted tree? Why would anyone even want to?

 

[Toney]

No what I was saying is much Toney as you recently changed your faith Icon I think it may be time for me to change mine also.

[/font]

PG, the only faith icon I sport is Magen Dovid. It pretty well says it all. Your point about SBC is well taken!

 

[Talmidah]

Frankly, Elena, I wish you would post your thoughts more often.

Thank you very much, Toney...I guess I am just always afraid of overstepping the bounds. Plus, I am not near as knowledgable as many of you.

I disagree with your assessment regarding Yafet and Hix's fit into MJ, although I understand the point you make. I think both gentlemen not only fit just fine, but tether this Forum in exactly the right spot: Torah. I may disagree with them on other, less important points. I hiss and get over it.

I'm glad you understand the point I was trying to make. They do fit into what you're saying MJ should be. I'm only saying the don't fit into what MJ has turned out to be (in the general sense). After spending some time in the MJ world, I came to the conclusion that they have....it is generally "christianity in a kippa". And into this world, one must admit that they would not fit.

On the question of Protestant Christianity's fit, I have well-founded concerns. If the undercurrent is Evangelical, it is plainy misplaced here as it breeds suspicion and is unwelcomed. It causes too many of us to read between the lines and it needs to stop.

Everything else is healthy discussion and builds up the Body,

To be honest, my knowledge of protestant christianity (or any christianity for that matter), comes mainly from my involvement with MJ. What I saw did not correspond to what I learned about Torah, so I believe you are right about your concerns. The thing is, from what little I do know, the undercurrent is indeed evangelical, not Torah-centered. As to what to do about it, I have no idea since I am not involved with this movement. It is interesting though, and sad, to see the hurt and suspicion about intentions that people are feeling.

 

[Plan 9]

I should probably not even post here because I am neither Messianic nor Christian (moderator, please delete if you need to).

I just feel bad for the people who feel they are being denigrated or beat up. I guess when I read Yafet's and Hix's posts, I see that they are justly criticizing the beliefs that have come from the gentile church and not gentiles. Both of them at one time believed in christian doctrines and left due to false teachings. Some of you may not believe that they have come to the correct conclusion, and that is valid. But it just seems like ya'll are reading way too much into what they are saying. I know for a fact that they are not trying to put any one person down or make you feel like you don't have a place in this fora. In the MJ world, they are definitely a minority so ya'll actually fit in to MJ more than they would. If you feel like you have no place here, no one can tell you not to feel it. But if I, whose beliefs are so different from the majority, can be here and learn even from those with whom I disagree, I would hope that you can feel that you can do the same, especially if you are drawn to Torah. (how's that for a run-on sentence ).

Shalom and G-d bless all of you!!!

So, now I'm picking on Yafet and Hix, for whom I have the deepest respect and affection? I don't even know how to answer an accusation like that, except that when another member unfairly went after me ( NOT Hix, and NOT Yafet), no actual member here attempted to console me but Hix, and even he did so privately, I presume because of the use of the dreaded word "Helenism"? I don't know why no one cared; Christianity wasn't even the issue.
That's how I knew I was an outsider here...except to Hix, who has the least theological basic for accepting me of any MJ. Hix, I won't forget that you noticed I was in trouble and that you cared.

I deeply regret any unhappiness I have inadvertantly caused here, and I will be the author of no more.

 

[ShirChadash]

Without stepping on anyone's toes (as that is not my intention, and honestly I see an awful lot of people posting with their dander up around here lately, and I want to say I absolutely have no intention of annoying or upsetting anyone -- so please don't read more into my comment here than I intend) may I just say that I am sadly sure that faith in HaShem likely would not have spread throughout the world in the same way had it continued to be, as a requisite for faith, connected intimately with "Jewishness" and the "Jewish" (read correctly, Biblical) faith, due to a fleshly, evil tendency to hate all things Jewish, Jews, Torah, etc.

IMVHO,YHVH Elohim has indeed used Christianity to bring untold numbers of people to repentance, salvation and faith in Himself as the One True G-d, even while many of those people are intensely (stupidly) anti-semitic to the core... Now, in these days when many people are seeing past the pathetic anti-semitic rhetoric, and realizing that we have lost out on the richness of our faith that Yeshua always intended us to live in -- Torah -- as His followers, many of us are seeing that the "division" of a great many things in our faith is wrong -- division of "OT" and "NT", division of "Christianity" away from Biblical Judaism, division of believers into "denominations"...

And while G-d can make good come from any thing -- even any fleshly thing of man -- He isn't content to leave His children in error or in less than His perfect Will, if possible, which I think is why Messianic Judaism is growing and people are being loved into the Truth of the complete Biblical faith by the Ruach Elohim.

Just my .36, chi-ching.

 

[Talmidah]

So, now I'm picking on Yafet and Hix, for whom I have the deepest respect and affection? I don't even know how to answer an accusation like that, except that when another member unfairly went after me ( NOT Hix, and NOT Yafet), no actual member here attempted to console me but Hix, and even he did so privately, I presume because of the use of the dreaded word "Helenism"? I don't know why no one cared; Christianity wasn't even the issue.
That's how I knew I was an outsider.

I deeply regret any unhappiness I have inadvertantly caused here, and I will be the author of no more.

This is the reason I knew I shouldn't have posted anything. Planny, please forgive me. I did not mean to hurt anyone. I only responded because I felt bad that some of you were hurting. I feel horrible that I implied you were picking on Yafet and Hix. Believe me, I am well known for expressing myself badly (and usually put a disclaimer to such in my posts.) My post was not directed at you, but at anyone who felt slighted or felt that their beliefs were being put down.

I am a total outsider here. As I said, I'm neither messianic nor christian...I don't fit in at all. In my own convoluted way, I was attempting to give encouragement to others who felt 'outside'. I failed at that, so I can only ask you to forgive me for adding to your hurt.

 

[Toney]

Thank you very much, Toney...I guess I am just always afraid of overstepping the bounds. Plus, I am not near as knowledgable as many of you.

I'm glad you understand the point I was trying to make. They do fit into what you're saying MJ should be. I'm only saying the don't fit into what MJ has turned out to be (in the general sense). After spending some time in the MJ world, I came to the conclusion that they have....it is generally "christianity in a kippa". And into this world, one must admit that they would not fit.

How knowledgable was Ruth?

You make one of the best points that has been made on this thread and it underscores the only reason for the OP -- what MJ should be vs. what MJ has turned out to be.

I say this: You women are going to have to take the lead. You, and Henny, Erin, and Zem and others like you. Where in G-d's name would either religion be without Ruth, without Esther, without Rebecca, without Miriam of Nazareth? Ask a Christian to explain the significance of Purim and then when you get a dumb look, 'splain it.

 

[ShirChadash]

when another member unfairly went after me ( NOT Hix, and NOT Yafet), no actual member here attempted to console me but Hix, and even he did so privately

Just a quick note to say, I realize I have missed a lot around here lately, so I don't know what incident you are referring to, but I love you as ever, Dear Planny, and would like to think I would stand for you, with you. I'm sorry you were hurt over something.

 

[Toney]

I witnessed the tattoo thread turn into a pity party. If someone has their feelings hurt, go cool off for a while.

One more step in that direction and this will close.

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm not really sure who it was that brought about the Hellenization charges, I've been away quite a bit lately as well... starting a new job and all.

 

[Toney]

I'm not really sure who it was that brought about the Hellenization charges, I've been away quite a bit lately as well... starting a new job and all.

It was Helen of Troy. She has been punished.

Glad you are back. What did you have for lunch?

 

[Talmidah]

What did you have for lunch?

Lunch!!!! Yea...finally an uncontroversial topic....one which reminds me that its now time for lunch

 

[Plan 9]

I witnessed the tattoo thread turn into a pity party. If someone has their feelings hurt, go cool off for a while.

One more step in that direction and this will close.

Thank you, Toney, for making it crystal clear that asking honest questions constitutes a having pity party here.

 

[Toney]

And to quote Helen, '. . .these tears of sorrow that I shed are both for you and for my miserable self. No one else is left. . .'.

With that I shall ask Mods to close the thread.

Shalom and thanks to all for their participation!

 

[iitb]

At the request of the OP, this thread is closed.