Orthodox MJs

[Toney]

Hix and I are in the vast minority on this stance.

And that is why you both are essential! MJs should be constantly pulled toward the truth of Torah, not the truth of Rabinic Judaism, which is man made. I first realised this during the discussion of tattoos.

On a personal note, I find that the position to which you and Hix subscribe (and I realise that there are even differences between the two of you), eminently (G-d help me, I almost spelt that with an 'i') defensible, and have hinted as much.

 

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Plan9,

I've seen the catchphrase "Hellenism" used to dismiss nearly anything disliked by the poster, and not just by you and Hix, Yafet. It's a perjorative term here which essentially means, "The discussion is over, lowly Gentile Christian. Get lost."

I would never, nor have I ever used the charges of hellenism in that way!

G-d forbid I should deter a gentile seeking the fulness of HaShem!

My dear, I may despise what christianity did with the truth, but I certainly don't despise gentiles... never.

-Yafet

 

[Toney]

The answer to why I, and many others, came to Messianic Judaism falls into the territory of "discovery of falsehoods" in christianity. Many of us felt deceived and betrayed. I suppose that's really more of why we left christianity. However, why we specifically chose to put our faith in Messainic Judaism for all together different reasons. Judaism appealed to us for reasons of truth and beauty.

I understand the appeal of not wanting to toss out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. MJ can serve as a perfectly fruitful transition for a full coversion to either faith tradition. Or, it can become a destination.

As destination, it must honour both faiths.

I never thought of "Hellenization" as a code word and thank Plan 9 for pointing this out to me. Interestingly, the Christian philosophy does not work without the Greek; owes much of its foundation to Greek Jews. I always considered that to be a positive, something only G-d could have successfully engineered and foreseen.

(Question: Have the Jews on this board in their denouement of Christianity looked into the Aristotlean connection? Without it, I agree that the two religions cannot be synthesized.)

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is one thing, throwing out Greek Philosophy, well I cannot even comprehend it. My salvation depends upon it!

 

[simchat_torah]

On a personal note, I find that the position to which you and Hix subscribe (and I realise that there are even differences between the two of you), eminently (G-d help me, I almost spelt that with an 'i') defensible, and have hinted as much.

Ahh... yes... someday I'm sure we will fully delve into this

For now, I leave to lunch.

 

[Plan 9]

Shalom Plan9,
[/color]
I would never, nor have I ever used the charges of hellenism in that way!

G-d forbid I should deter a gentile seeking the fulness of HaShem!

My dear, I may despise what christianity did with the truth, but I certainly don't despise gentiles... never.

-Yafet

No, you don't, and neither does Hix, yet that sounds remarkably like the "Hate the sin, but love the sinner." line used so often by the Gentile Christians for whom I am never good enough, either.

It's not much in the way of consolation that everything I believe is a lie which I am stupid enough to embrace, but if you have no objections to my liking of art deco, I suppose that's something.

 

[Plan 9]

Before my admittedly bitter posts get this thread closed, I'll strike my tent, and be on my way. I'd like to thank you all for offering me your hospitality.

I would love to stay longer, but hope deferred makes the heart sick.

Thank you all, and may G-d bless you all richly with his love and care, my friends.

 

[P_G]

I've seen the catchphrase "Hellenism" used to dismiss nearly anything disliked by the poster, and not just by you and Hix, Yafet. It's a perjorative term here which essentially means, "The discussion is over, lowly Gentile Christian. Get lost."

I concur and it is not the first time we have been down this road.

I know you don't see it.
But if the shoe was on the other foot in another
fora you would be on it like the hounds of Hades.

And that is what I have been trying to say from the begining.

FWIW this whole thing has me to look to change my icon and
root here because it is just so over the top. For the first time
since I have been to CF and specifically MJ I feel beat up
and really hurt. And know what fellows I would never have done that to you!

But alas a mennonite icon is just not going to be forth comming. So here I stay
with Planny for a bit of a while.

PG

 

[Plan 9]

There is a thread requesting a Mennonite icon in Suggestions, PG. You should post there.

 

[P_G]

There is a thread requesting a Mennonite icon in Suggestions, PG. You should post there.

Yes sis I know
I started the thread after this whole debaucle.

Erwin says there aint enough of us to have one
I am like a minorty of one!

PG

 

[Plan 9]

PG, you can't posibly be the only Anabaptist here.

 

[Toney]

Erwin says there aint enough of us to have one
I am like a minorty of one!

PG
[/font]

Please do not read anything into this, but in the reorganization of PRE there is an Anabaptist Forum.

 

[Hix]

I...appear to have given off the wrong impressions again. Il exit this discussion, I am sorry that I offended anyone, I should have kept my opinions to myself.

I am anything but anti-gentile or anti-christianity, my entire family are both and even my fiance is a gentile. My opinion is that Judaism is the way of the Torah and that is the way it should be, christianity ignores this entirely.

Once again, sorry everyone

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Plan 9]

Please do not read anything into this, but in the reorganization of PRE there is an Anabaptist Forum.

Toney, he's speaking of not having a denominational icon.

 

[Toney]

Toney, he's speaking of not having a denominational icon.

Oh, sorry.

Hix, put on your thick skin. This thread seeks only to establish definition and rid MJ of undercurrents*. If it is not performing that function, please inform me and as OP I will request that a Mod close it.

*Undercurrent: a hidden opinion, feeling, or tendency often contrary to the one publicly shown often carrying seaweed and jellyfish that sting a little.

 

[Hix]

The only thing I can see my imput performing is hurting others who I value as friends, such as you and Planny. Speaking my opinion is not worth these reprecussions.

I have alot of good to say about christianity, it is the worlds largest supporter of Israel, even more so than Jews in the diaspora. And the very fact it teaches about HaShem is highly admirable.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Toney]

The only thing I can see my imput performing is hurting others who I value as friends, such as you and Planny. Speaking my opinion is not worth these reprecussions.

I have alot of good to say about christianity, it is the worlds largest supporter of Israel, even more so than Jews in the diaspora. And the very fact it teaches about HaShem is highly admirable.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

I cannot speak for Planny, but I regard you more of a friend today than ever before. Your posts to this thread have excelled in unimpassioned realism.

But if the thread is counterproductive, I need to know. As OP, I do not trust my objectivity on this point of concern.

 

[Talmidah]

I should probably not even post here because I am neither Messianic nor Christian (moderator, please delete if you need to).

I just feel bad for the people who feel they are being denigrated or beat up. I guess when I read Yafet's and Hix's posts, I see that they are justly criticizing the beliefs that have come from the gentile church and not gentiles. Both of them at one time believed in christian doctrines and left due to false teachings. Some of you may not believe that they have come to the correct conclusion, and that is valid. But it just seems like ya'll are reading way too much into what they are saying. I know for a fact that they are not trying to put any one person down or make you feel like you don't have a place in this fora. In the MJ world, they are definitely a minority so ya'll actually fit in to MJ more than they would. If you feel like you have no place here, no one can tell you not to feel it. But if I, whose beliefs are so different from the majority, can be here and learn even from those with whom I disagree, I would hope that you can feel that you can do the same, especially if you are drawn to Torah. (how's that for a run-on sentence ).

Shalom and G-d bless all of you!!!

 

[Hix]

I cannot speak for Planny, but I regard you more of a friend today than ever before. Your posts to this thread have excelled in unimpassioned realism.

But if the thread is counterproductive, I need to know. As OP, I do not trust my objectivity on this point of concern.

Thank you Toney,

I dont believe the thread is counterproductive at all, infact it is probably my opinion and mine alone which is counterproductive. This is no doubt becuase, in my own story I was brought up as christian as they come, indeed my dad is a christian pastor and former member of several Jewish witnessing groups. My mom too was heavily involved in the church and thats the way I was brought up also.

I accepted what I was told as writ, and indeed I make no secret of the fact my belief in a creator probably would not have happened, if not for christianity. I ended up abandoning ship before my faith sank and longed for some truth, some way in which I could be sure I was following the path that G-d wanted for me. IMHO I have found it. Perhaps I am still a little too bitter against christianity and for that I wholeheartedly apologise to all. There is indeed, alot of good that can be said for christianity.

So keep at what your doing Toney, Il try from now on to only say productive things.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[simchat_torah]

FWIW this whole thing has me to look to change my icon and
root here because it is just so over the top. For the first time
since I have been to CF and specifically MJ I feel beat up
and really hurt. And know what fellows I would never have done that to you!

PG, please understand that this very thread was never intended to go in the direciton you took it to be. From the onset, I think that Toney was making a simple passionate plea to keep a Judaic focus when we erect the bridge of Messianic Judaism. Then he received, in my opinion, unwarranted accusations concerning his intentions...

Toney, he himself making this evidently clear, never sought to imply what he was accused of. I don't think that you should be offended enough to change to a different icon just because of what took place in this one thread (especially a thread where the OP's intentions were so pure). I for one, would feel you would be slightly deceptive if you took upon yourself a menonite icon... but that's just my own personal view. But even more so, I think we need to stop accusing each other of such deadly accusations.

Plan 9, nothing could be further from the truth in what I have posted and what is implied with 'hellenization'. Yes, christianity has been hellenized. That can't be denied. However, in no way, shape or form am I denying ANY gentile their access to HaShem, or in any way derrogative towards gentiles!

G-d revealed His infinitely wise plan via the means of the Judaic faith. To try to understand G-d through another faith will only lead to an askew view. But I am not saying gentiles can not view G-d! All one must do is simply place upon themselves the Jewish-colored glasses ( aka rose colored ) to see the beauty of his plan. To jump ahead and say that this means Gentiles are worthless is not only a grave error, but hurts that I would imply such.....

all I can say is, no way.

 

[Toney]

I should probably not even post here because I am neither Messianic nor Christian (moderator, please delete if you need to).

I just feel bad for the people who feel they are being denigrated or beat up. I guess when I read Yafet's and Hix's posts, I see that they are justly criticizing the beliefs that have come from the gentile church and not gentiles. Both of them at one time believed in christian doctrines and left due to false teachings. Some of you may not believe that they have come to the correct conclusion, and that is valid. But it just seems like ya'll are reading way too much into what they are saying. I know for a fact that they are not trying to put any one person down or make you feel like you don't have a place in this fora. In the MJ world, they are definitely a minority so ya'll actually fit in to MJ more than they would. If you feel like you have no place here, no one can tell you not to feel it. But if I, whose beliefs are so different from the majority, can be here and learn even from those with whom I disagree, I would hope that you can feel that you can do the same, especially if you are drawn to Torah. (how's that for a run-on sentence ).

Shalom and G-d bless all of you!!!

Frankly, Elena, I wish you would post your thoughts more often.

As you know, I am both a Christian (Catholic) and an MJ. I disagree with your assessment regarding Yafet and Hix's fit into MJ, although I understand the point you make. I think both gentlemen not only fit just fine, but tether this Forum in exactly the right spot: Torah. I may disagree with them on other, less important points. I hiss and get over it.

On the question of Protestant Christianity's fit, I have well-founded concerns. If the undercurrent is Evangelical, it is plainy misplaced here as it breeds suspicion and is unwelcomed. It causes too many of us to read between the lines and it needs to stop.

Everything else is healthy discussion and builds up the Body,