Orthodox MJs

[Toney]

My position is that G-d didn't make a mistake... man did.

Man created Christianity.

It is a nice expression of spirituality, but it was not ordained by G-d... imho.

We can agree to disagree, achi. In any case, I personally am glad that man made that mistake.

 

[simchat_torah]

I am not stating Christianity is devoid of any truth. There simply is no indication that G-d ordained the 'religion' of christinaity. It came about completely by the hands of man. However, it does grasp onto many of the truths HaShem instilled from creation.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Toney]

I am not stating Christianity is devoid of any truth. There simply is no indication that G-d ordained the 'religion' of christinaity. It came about completely by the hands of man. However, it does grasp onto many of the truths HaShem instilled from creation.

shalom,
yafet

This is probably as good a time as any to ask the questions, since you keep repeating that opinion.

Suppose you are correct. What on earth do we do with that newly revealed truth?

Do you see no value in the teleological argument for HaShem's esistence? What philosophy of history, other than the non-esistence of HaShem or, His impotence, allows for such an assertion?

 

[simchat_torah]

Before I can answer, I have to know what the question is referring to...

what newly revealed truth?

and...

What philosophy of history, other than the non-esistence of HaShem or, His impotence, allows for such an assertion?

Is that all that Judaism is limited to in your view?

shalom,
yafet

 

[Hix]

I see merit in the fact that christianity expounds the existence of HaShem, confused about the details they are, but with mass helenization and a splitting from the core of G-ds truth, its to be expected.

Having said that it most certainly isnt a faith that G-d ordained, simply becuase it is not consistant with scripture. The original followers of Yeshua, the netzarim stood by Judaism and infact, history records were actually accepted by the Jewish governing body at the time. History however records that during the Bar Kochba revolt, these netzarim stood by Yerushaliyim and were killed by the romans, which left the door open for the following of Yeshua to be divorced entirely from the way it was, only to create christianity.

All the Jewish holidays were abolished, the Torah says that the Rabbis have been given authority to legislate on scripture, that too was done away with and councils were set up by the likes of Constantine and Origen to enforce belief systems alien to that of Judaism on the people. Infact there wasnt a Jew about the place.

Over the years these things became accepted as if it were from HaShem above, Shabbat is sunday and it isnt a day of rest, its a day of worship. The Torah is useless and void, it doesnt apply to us today and this is a good thing becuase it means we can have shabbat cookouts with pork and shrimp. Yeshua was more than the Jewish Moshiach, he was G-d incarnate who came to set up the "church" becuase G-d had changed his mind regarding Judaism.

All these things, are at least IMHO signs that it was not HaShems will that christianity in its current form exist. If they cared more about the Torah, read the scriptures with a Jewish POV instead of a hellenized one and realised that all G-d wants is for us to know him and follow his word, then maybe then...

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Toney]

Before I can answer, I have to know what the question is referring to...

what newly revealed truth?

and...
Is that all that Judaism is limited to in your view?

shalom,
yafet

You misunderstand, I think.

The truth of your assertion! That Christianity was not part of the Divine Plan, that it was "not ordained" by HaShem, that it was man made.

I wrote nothing about Judaism in my question, Yafet. Please re-read it. I know you took a philosophy class, or two. The question goes to the philosophy of history. Just answer it, please.

 

[Toney]

I see merit in the fact that christianity expounds the existence of HaShem, confused about the details they are, but with mass helenization and a splitting from the core of G-ds truth, its to be expected.

Having said that it most certainly isnt a faith that G-d ordained, simply becuase it is not consistant with scripture. The original followers of Yeshua, the netzarim stood by Judaism and infact, history records were actually accepted by the Jewish governing body at the time. History however records that during the Bar Kochba revolt, these netzarim stood by Yerushaliyim and were killed by the romans, which left the door open for the following of Yeshua to be divorced entirely from the way it was, only to create christianity.

All the Jewish holidays were abolished, the Torah says that the Rabbis have been given authority to legislate on scripture, that too was done away with and councils were set up by the likes of Constantine and Origen to enforce belief systems alien to that of Judaism on the people. Infact there wasnt a Jew about the place.

Over the years these things became accepted as if it were from HaShem above, Shabbat is sunday and it isnt a day of rest, its a day of worship. The Torah is useless and void, it doesnt apply to us today and this is a good thing becuase it means we can have shabbat cookouts with pork and shrimp. Yeshua was more than the Jewish Moshiach, he was G-d incarnate who came to set up the "church" becuase G-d had changed his mind regarding Judaism.

All these things, are at least IMHO signs that it was not HaShems will that christianity in its current form exist. If they cared more about the Torah, read the scriptures with a Jewish POV instead of a hellenized one and realised that all G-d wants is for us to know him and follow his word, then maybe then...

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Hix, I understand your (and Yafet's) frustration with the Christian Church and your points are well taken.

I simply ask, how is the assertion efficacious? From the Jewish POV, I should think one would be more concerned with Reform Judaism.

I really don't want to see this thread hijacked. If MJism requires as raison d’etre the wholesale discrediting of Christianity, I should like to know and know now.

 

[Hix]

it most certainly doesnt require that at all. LIke weve said, MJ has a wide range of beliefs, Il admit im a major minority achi.

And yes, the reform movement is even worse IMHO.

 

[P_G]

Hix - Many toothy points there youngster! We would have some fun face to face discussing them. I have heard many of those points used before but usually from "anti-missionarys". In truth you know I come from this more from the realm that J4J or Chosen People Ministries would come from. So we would likely butt heads. But we would have some fun with it.

Toney - A word of caution, I have typed and erased 3 Private letters to you so far this morning and erased each one. A lot of what you have been posting is very anti protestant and anti Catholic. I don't think you are meaning to do this I really don't. But be careful of what you say and how you say it. I don't think you want missionary bands of Lutherens or Roman Catholics out here to set us all straight. And they would have every right. Remember gentleness.

I want to go on record that I do from the pulpit of a real church (actually several real churchs) routinely preach against replacement theology. The church has never replaced Y'sreal. It's never going to. We have blessedly been added on to it. The church started out as a Jewish sect and has built a lot of false stuff on top of it along the way. That really needs to be corrected.

I do firmly beleive that a saving knowlege of Y'shua is necessary in the post crucifixtion world for savation. I think that the Brit confrims this over and over again. Many here aparantly do not. Well so be it I guess. Let the best witness and testemony win.

But I want you to put yourself in this scene:
You walk up to a prison cell. It is dark and very noisy in the jail, the dank heat is opressive and seems to make the stink of the toilets and sweat even worse than usual this night. Inside this cell is a large man not of your race. He has been tried and convicted of murder and rape in the commission of a home invasion robery. The look in his eyes is angry, he hates you and he hates what you stand for. As a child he was abused by a clergyman.

You have been sent to show him the love and forgiveness of G-d. His soul is what is in jepordy for all eternity for his sentence is death. So tell me chaplain what is it that you are going to tell this man? Can you love him? Will you speak of grace and forgivness? Or something else?

Welcome to my world


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[muffler dragon]

To Hix:

When you make the following statement:

Yeshua was more than the Jewish Moshiach, he was G-d incarnate who came to set up the "church" becuase G-d had changed his mind regarding Judaism.

I understand your sentiment regarding G-d changing his mind, but are you also stating that the deity of Christ is also a Hellenistic or 'Christianizing' of the Truth?

Thanks,

Nathan

 

[Toney]

it most certainly doesnt require that at all. LIke weve said, MJ has a wide range of beliefs, Il admit im a major minority achi.

And yes, the reform movement is even worse IMHO.

Well, as for bridge building this particular strand of MJ thought is a non-starter.

In Chabad, as you know, a shlichim begins with tefillin, not a slap in the face.

Truthfully, I enjoy fretting over spiritual matter with you and Yafet, two young, brilliant minds not well served at all, IMHO, by a bunker mentality. You have been attacked too often by narrow-minded Christians, some of the worse people on the face of this earth, and I would like to apologize to you both for their egregious sinfulness.

I hope you consider, as do I, that this type of dialogue is constructive.

 

[Toney]

Toney - A word of caution, I have typed and erased 3 Private letters to you so far this morning and erased each one. A lot of what you have been posting is very anti protestant and anti Catholic. I don't think you are meaning to do this I really don't. But be careful of what you say and how you say it. I don't think you want missionary bands of Lutherens or Roman Catholics out here to set us all straight. And they would have every right. Remember gentleness.

Good advice. I realize my hyperbole has come close to the edge, but I try to make a point. Not to be flip, but your caution to me is somewhat complimentary for I truly feel that an MJ should be able to walk into either camp and not get shot at.

As for Lutherans and RC's, I have firewall protection. Besides, this is a family squabble and does not concern them in the least.

 

[Plan 9]

Perhaps instead of relegating all Christian faith and practice to the realms of Hellenism and paganism, someone might be willing to offer what must be a very short list of what some Christians have right?

 

[simchat_torah]

You misunderstand, I think.

The truth of your assertion! That Christianity was not part of the Divine Plan, that it was "not ordained" by HaShem, that it was man made.

I wrote nothing about Judaism in my question, Yafet. Please re-read it. I know you took a philosophy class, or two. The question goes to the philosophy of history. Just answer it, please.

I suppose I may have read more into what you wrote... I'll try again:

Suppose you are correct. What on earth do we do with that newly revealed truth?

I'm assuming that you want to suppose we take the stance that Christianity is man made.... what do we do with that revelation?

I simply left.

At first, I tried to reconcile christianity. I tried excusing all of the 'dung' (if you will). That didn't work, for reasons I pointed out in the almost debated paganism topic in the MJ section. There, I pointed out, at least according to the Tenach:
1) Ignorance is not an excuse. At first I tried expressing that most christians were merely ignorant, but this crumbled when looking at II Sam. 6.
2) G-d explicitly states we are not to worship Him in the same way the pagans worship their deities. You see, at first, I tried to dispell the pagan influences by stating 'christians are actually worshipping G-d'. However, it became evident that G-d demanded we worship Him in the manner in which He prescribed, and not in the same manner as that of the pagans.

So, with my own 'excuses' pushed to the way side, I was left unable to reconcile christianity. This led me to attempt to "toss out the dung" while maintaining what I felt was right and good.

I soon found out I was tossing out the entire thing... the overwhelming majority of it was dung.

I then attempted to rebuild my beliefs upon the "new testament" and the "messiah". This too failed. You see, the Messiah continously pointed to the Torah and the Father, never to himself. Sure, he was a beacon of light that led me to an end, but was not the end in itself. I also realized the dangers of building any doctrine soley on the "nt". (I will explain more of this later)

I have finally resolved to pitching aside the last 2,000 years and starting from scratch. The apostles instructed the early messianics to go to synagogue. Never did they have their own "church" or congregation even.

19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from *sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Here is clear instruction. Start with the basic Noachide covenant that was given to all mankind. Then, go to synagogue on Sabbath and hear the torah (moses). There you will grow in the rest of righteousness.

Never was there to be a seperate religion called "christianity". Even following the most basic principles in the Brit Chadasha (nt) you will be led to Judaism and the synagogue. Anything else is simply put... man made.

I evolved in my view over time. First, I attempted to reconcile christianity, then to 'clean it up', and finally tossed it out. Then I went from attempting to build my faith upon NT principles, to finally where I am today... totally Judaic in mindset.

I'm not denouncing the value of that which is tainted, but it is simply that... tainted... man made. The Judaic mindset, as you pointed out in your OP, is G-d ordained.

I simply feel you went one step too far in declaring the other island was made by G-d as well. We merely diverge on that one aspect achi.

Shalom,
yafet

 

[Toney]

Perhaps instead of relegating all Christian faith and practice to the realms of Hellenism and paganism, someone might be willing to offer what must be a very short list of what some Christians have right?

Now there's a plan for the ages! Thank you, Plan 9.

Unless that question can be answered from the Jewish side, MJ is a Protestant Denomination. For MJ to be authentically Jewish, IMO, an accomodation must be made. MJAA seems not to have this difficulty. Maybe it is too Protestant, I don't know.

Lest I be misunderstood, I should like to repeat my sentiment: The MJ hybrid is defined by Judaism, by Jewish festivals, Jewish worship, Jewish spirituality, Jewish mysticism, by the postive message of Torah, not by the negation of Christianity.

I just do not understand why Christianity and Judaism must be viewed as mutually exclusive by Messianic Jews. Go figure.

 

[simchat_torah]

I guess when you make the assumption that I have, that christianity is man made, you have only but one choice... leave and establish a firm foundation in Judaism.

Now, I do grant you the right to argue over my logic in arriving at this conclusion, but if I am correct in my steps, then the conclusion is sound.

 

[simchat_torah]

just do not understand why Christianity and Judaism must be viewed as mutually exclusive by Messianic Jews. Go figure.

To be honest, by most it isn't.

Hix and I are in the vast minority on this stance.

 

[Toney]

I suppose I may have read more into what you wrote... I'll try again:
I'm assuming that you want to suppose we take the stance that Christianity is man made.... what do we do with that revelation?

I simply left.

At first, I tried to reconcile christianity. I tried excusing all of the 'dung' (if you will). That didn't work, for reasons I pointed out in the almost debated paganism topic in the MJ section. There, I pointed out, at least according to the Tenach:
1) Ignorance is not an excuse. At first I tried expressing that most christians were merely ignorant, but this crumbled when looking at II Sam. 6.
2) G-d explicitly states we are not to worship Him in the same way the pagans worship their deities. You see, at first, I tried to dispell the pagan influences by stating 'christians are actually worshipping G-d'. However, it became evident that G-d demanded we worship Him in the manner in which He prescribed, and not in the same manner as that of the pagans.

So, with my own 'excuses' pushed to the way side, I was left unable to reconcile christianity. This led me to attempt to "toss out the dung" while maintaining what I felt was right and good.

I soon found out I was tossing out the entire thing... the overwhelming majority of it was dung.

I then attempted to rebuild my beliefs upon the "new testament" and the "messiah". This too failed. You see, the Messiah continously pointed to the Torah and the Father, never to himself. Sure, he was a beacon of light that led me to an end, but was not the end in itself. I also realized the dangers of building any doctrine soley on the "nt". (I will explain more of this later)

I have finally resolved to pitching aside the last 2,000 years and starting from scratch. The apostles instructed the early messianics to go to synagogue. Never did they have their own "church" or congregation even. Here is clear instruction. Start with the basic Noachide covenant that was given to all mankind. Then, go to synagogue on Sabbath and hear the torah (moses). There you will grow in the rest of righteousness.

Never was there to be a seperate religion called "christianity". Even following the most basic principles in the Brit Chadasha (nt) you will be led to Judaism and the synagogue. Anything else is simply put... man made.

I evolved in my view over time. First, I attempted to reconcile christianity, then to 'clean it up', and finally tossed it out. Then I went from attempting to build my faith upon NT principles, to finally where I am today... totally Judaic in mindset.

I'm not denouncing the value of that which is tainted, but it is simply that... tainted... man made. The Judaic mindset, as you pointed out in your OP, is G-d ordained.

I simply feel you went one step too far in declaring the other island was made by G-d as well. We merely diverge on that one aspect achi.

Shalom,
yafet

Yafet,

Thank you for walking me through that spiritual quest. Somes Jews felt the same way, some did not, hence two religions.

I am not sure how the Messiah gets in the front door, but it is surely possible or the MJ hybrid would not be plausible. This is why I used orthodox anchors in the bridge analogy.

We need a hypostatic union of faiths.

I want Moshiach now.

Shalom

 

[simchat_torah]

Unless that question can be answered from the Jewish side, MJ is a Protestant Denomination.

The answer to why I, and many others, came to Messianic Judaism falls into the territory of "discovery of falsehoods" in christianity. Many of us felt deceived and betrayed. I suppose that's really more of why we left christianity. However, why we specifically chose to put our faith in Messainic Judaism for all together different reasons. Judaism appealed to us for reasons of truth and beauty.

 

[Plan 9]

I've seen the catchphrase "Hellenism" used to dismiss nearly anything disliked by the poster, and not just by you and Hix, Yafet. It's a perjorative term here which essentially means, "The discussion is over, lowly Gentile Christian. Get lost."