original sin

[Ethan_Fetch]

Because of his free will, God did not know what he would do, which way he would turn.

I am speechless.

God didn't know what Adam would do?

 

[mmreed]

He wants us all to elevate ourselves up to a righteous nature where he can talk to us. He wants us to be on his level, for he is our loving Father and our purpose is to be His family. It is entirely possible to be obedient to Him. Some think that it is impossible, so they don’t even try. How can you be obedient to God? Love Him and you will be obedient. For when you truly love someone, you will place their needs above yours.

I dont think its possible to be 100% obedient to God... as you said, free will will dictate that man makes mistakes at times. I would even bet that there is not a person alive that does not commit at leat 1 sin a day...and thats conservative... a judgemental thought, an action of arrogance, a sneer in place of a smile, envy... as tiny as the sin may be... we sin, and sin often. Those that claim to be righteous minded christians that live a Godly life are putting themselves on a pedastle (which is a sin in itself)...elevating thier status above the common masses in what the think are the eyes of God. The fact is we all sin, and sin daily, some even hourly with even the smallest sin. We all strive not to sin, and try to live a righteous life... it is that ATTEMPT that brings us closer to God I believe.

 

[qh93536]

I am speechless.

God didn't know what Adam would do?

Absolutely - And for some people, "speechless" is a good thing.

 

[mmreed]

Absolutely - And for some people, "speechless" is a good thing.

Time doesnt exist in the realm God does... so God is timeless and would know what Adam did wouldnt He?

And not knowing is a weakness isnt it? God has no weakness does He?

 

[DarkCloud]

I have not really gotten a straight reply. In fact some people are arguing over opinions. Also, everyone now seems to be devloping theories which are not backed up by scripture. E.g.,

No You need to understand that Adam was an experiment. Because of his free will, God did not know what he would do, which way he would turn. Satan, though unplanned, became a part of that experiment, and the result was a negative effect. Our sinful nature has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. It is not impossible for us to live sin free, though highly improbable.

1. How do you know Adam was an experiment?
2. If God is omnipotent, then he knows all.
3. How do you know these things about Satan.
4. How do you know the effect of Adam and Eve on us?
[/quote]

No, we do not have Adam's original sin, but because of Adam we are all fallen, destined to hell, without the Saviour. Even a babe that dies after it's first breath, who did not sin, does still need the Saviour.

No, i mean a babe does not have Adam's sin, the babe did not eat a fruit they were not supposed to, however, they are in that fallen state because of Adam's sin. It is the result of Adam's sin.

What is this so-called "fallen state"? And it doesn't address my question: that being, if God is just, then how can we inherit this "fallen state" when we have done nothing. No matter, what, you cannot argue conviningly that a baby deserves internal damnation--that would just be absurd.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Absolutely - And for some people, "speechless" is a good thing.

I may very well be one of those people...

I've recovered my voice now...

So, let me tell you about my God...He knows everything. There's nothing He doesn't know and furthermore, He "declares the end from the beginning"

Isa. 46:8-11 - "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

Nothing surprises God.

If you believe in a god who can be surprised, you believe in god who can be fooled. You believe in a god over whom circumstances and secondary causes rule ineluctably.

That's not my God.

That sounds more like a man.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Ethan Fetch is right. If we will refuse that Adam's sin can be imputed to us, why doesn't it bother us that Christ's righteousness can be imputed to us? Not very fair, don't you think? How unjust of us.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The sin of Eve, imputed to Adam as leader, was preordained by God to infect humanity. Eve could not have resisted Satan, as she was created with this vulnerability on purpose. 'Sin' existed before Adam and Eve, and was 'created' by God to 'explain' to himself what Lucifer had done.

Human history is a physical reenactment of the rebellion of Lucifer and the angels. God cannot 'kill' the sinning angels, but he can kill humans, who are 'substitutes' for the demons in the same way that Christ is a substitutionary death for us, and thus satisfies God's anger.

The whole of human history is God working out his anger over Lucifer's rebellion, and rebuilding his damaged Kingdom.

Christians would do well to learn about the Father, who Christ came to reveal, instead of focusing all their studies on their own salvation.

 

[tapero]

I'd love to hear the biblical scripture backing up that posters (sorry don't know his name offhand) belief that adam,eve,and satan were experiments.

Haven't heard it yet.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

"Sin" is a spiritual disease. It's that twisted, selfish, godless, "sick" quality in us. Yes, I think we're born with that spiritual disease. This is "original sin." I don't think this is a "metaphore" (a position argued in this thread). I think a quick read of the newpaper will reveal that sin is real.


"Sins" (omission and comission) are the SYMPTOMS of that disease. If a person has a cold, they are apt to caugh or sneeze or have a runny nose - the symptoms flow from the disease (not the other way around). Bad fruit comes from bad trees. It's not the caugh that gives us a cold, it's a cold that causes us to caugh. Now, if a person isn't caughing at this very second - that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a cold. They just don't have any symptoms just then. It doens't mean they are well (maybe just well drugged, lol).




An illustration (always limited) I used before:

I shoot my roommate, a bullet enters his head and he dies. There are some that would agrue that the only "bad" thing was my pulling the trigger that resulted in the bullet causing a death. Until the second I pulled that trigger - well, the bullet entered his head and he died - there was nothing wrong, no badness, no sin, just wonderful righteousness and holiness.

I disagree. There's a history to that bullet entering my roommates head! And the history goes back to my heart. Back to something INSIDE of me, something in my twisted nature. The pulling the trigger is simply the last step in a long chain starting in my heart, my nature.


In referencing the commandmant, "You shall not murder," Jesus explained that if we "hate" someone we are already sinning. Ah, it all goes back to our heart. Sin is NOT limited to what we actually DO or leave undone. It all goes back to our heart, our nature. THAT'S what is meant by original sin.


MY $0.01...


Keep the faith! Share the love!


- Josiah


.

 

[Melethiel]

He wants us all to elevate ourselves up to a righteous nature where he can talk to us. He wants us to be on his level, for he is our loving Father and our purpose is to be His family. It is entirely possible to be obedient to Him.

It is entirely possible to be obedient to Him? Why does this smell like Pelagianism to me?

 

[Abiel]

So if we are all originally sinful, why is heaven going to be different? Is our free will taken away?

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

So if we are all originally sinful, why is heaven going to be different? Is our free will taken away?

In the resurrection the work begun by Christ will be complete and we will be no longer able to sin nor subject to it's rule.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

"Sin" is a spiritual disease. It's that twisted, selfish, godless, "sick" quality in us. Yes, I think we're born with that spiritual disease. This is "original sin." I don't think this is a "metaphore" (a position argued in this thread). I think a quick read of the newpaper will reveal that sin is real.


"Sins" (omission and comission) are the SYMPTOMS of that disease. If a person has a cold, they are apt to caugh or sneeze or have a runny nose - the symptoms flow from the disease (not the other way around). Bad fruit comes from bad trees. It's not the caugh that gives us a cold, it's a cold that causes us to caugh. Now, if a person isn't caughing at this very second - that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a cold. They just don't have any symptoms just then. It doens't mean they are well (maybe just well drugged, lol).




An illustration (always limited) I used before:

I shoot my roommate, a bullet enters his head and he dies. There are some that would agrue that the only "bad" thing was my pulling the trigger that resulted in the bullet causing a death. Until the second I pulled that trigger - well, the bullet entered his head and he died - there was nothing wrong, no badness, no sin, just wonderful righteousness and holiness.

I disagree. There's a history to that bullet entering my roommates head! And the history goes back to my heart. Back to something INSIDE of me, something in my twisted nature. The pulling the trigger is simply the last step in a long chain starting in my heart, my nature.


In referencing the commandmant, "You shall not murder," Jesus explained that if we "hate" someone we are already sinning. Ah, it all goes back to our heart. Sin is NOT limited to what we actually DO or leave undone. It all goes back to our heart, our nature. THAT'S what is meant by original sin.


MY $0.01...


Keep the faith! Share the love!


- Josiah


.

Your are right on.

We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We aren't thieves because we steal; we steal because we are thieves.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Your are right on.

We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. We aren't thieves because we steal; we steal because we are thieves.

Good stuff, both of you...good orthodox historical and finally biblical hamartiology.

 

[mmreed]

In the resurrection the work begun by Christ will be complete and we will be no longer able to sin nor subject to it's rule.

does this mean there will be no free will at this point?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Hi all,

Something has been bothering me on my journey with the Lord, and I'm sure many of you had come across this "road block" before also; so hopefully you can give me some advice on how to side step this problem.

The question is how can we be punished from original sin? That doesn't seem fair or just, and God is perfectly just. Would we punish a child for the crimes of its parents? Even in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” This seems like a contradiction. What do the Biblical scholars have to teach us on this?

We choose to do sin of our own will everyday. That is what we get judged for. Sin just spread to all man through Adam, but ea. man chooses of his own will whether to repent or not of sin or to continue in sin.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

does this mean there will be no free will at this point?

What does free will have to do with it?

In in the resurrected state there is no inclination to sin, no sin nature then the state of our wills becomes irrelevant.

We won't want to sin.

 

[qh93536]

Time doesnt exist in the realm God does... so God is timeless and would know what Adam did wouldnt He?

And not knowing is a weakness isnt it? God has no weakness does He?

Oh, time does exist for God. What is time? Time is the movement of things. If nothing was moving, then time would not pass. God does not know the future because the future has not yet happened. But, he can create the future by manipulating people, places, situations and things. In other words, God creates this image of the future event. This event will not just happen by itself because God created an image of it. He must make it happen by manipulating everything that is required to make that future event happen.

And that is not a weekness!

 

[Melethiel]

Oh, time does exist for God. What is time? Time is the movement of things. If nothing was moving, then time would not pass. God does not know the future because the future has not yet happened. But, he can create the future by manipulating people, places, situations and things. In other words, God creates this image of the future event. This event will not just happen by itself because God created an image of it. He must make it happen by manipulating everything that is required to make that future event happen.

And that is not a weekness!

Scientifically incorrect. Time is another dimension, which can be twisted by things like speed or excessive gravity, and is woven into the fabric of space. Thus, God created time, and is outside of it.