Original Sin - The Truth

[qh93536]

There are at least 4 threads currently in play concerning infant baptism. Is it necessary? Does it mean anything? Will a child go to hell if not baptized? Are children truly innocent?

I am taking a stand here for God. I don’t care what your interpretation of scripture is. I don’t care what your pastor says or how many degrees in theology he has. I don’t care if I am the only person who believes the truth and I stand against a million who believe otherwise. I don’t care because I KNOW GOD AND HIS CHARACTER!

To those who believe that God could or would send a child to Hell, or even force that child to face a judgment, I make this statement to you: YOU DO NOT KNOW HIM! You say the he is a good God, a loving and merciful God. Yet you also say that he would or might send a child to Hell. THERE IS A DEFINATE CONTRADICTION HERE!

A good and just God would not send a child to Hell. WHY? Because CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT! And that is where the confusion lies. Are children innocent, or are they born sinful as many believe?

There are scriptures which were meant to be metaphors and there is other scripture that has been taken out of context. There is scripture that was meant to describe a given people at a given time that theologians have taken to apply to all today. Again, I DON’T CARE what yours or anybody elses interpretation of scripture is. So don’t bother throwing any at me.

Try to understand the nature of a physical Hell. It is a place where there is eternal suffering, both mental and PHYSICAL. It is a place where the spirit of a fallen person will suffer the worst pain imaginable for eternity. To make the statement that God would or even might send a baby or child there is saying that God is heartless and even outright ruthless. It goes completely against his character.

You say that we are born with a sinful nature, or even that we inherit the sin of Adam. In other words, God continues to create us as sinful beings. WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? To me, a sinful nature would be a defect, so you are saying that God continues to create defective children? WHY? DOES HE WANT US TO BE SINFUL? What kind of father would willfully continue to create defective or sinful children?

There is some disagreement as to why God created us. Some will disagree with any theory concerning our purpose, but when asked what they think, they don’t have a clue, they will say that they don’t really know. There are some who believe that God created us so that we would glorify Him. God does not need us to glorify him. He has no ego to feed. He knows exactly who and what he is. He does not need somebody patting him on the back, telling him how great he is.

What he does need is a loving family and the loving relationship with that family. The Angels do not satisfy that need. They do not have free will and therefore their love is not real. It is programmed. God created Adam and the human race with complete free will for a reason. And that reason is the he wanted to let us make the decision to follow him. He wanted to allow us to make the decision to love him, not for who he is, but for HOW HE IS.

God created us to be like him, to share his nature. What good, loving father would not want his child to be like him? You see, we CAN NOT have a true relationship with him until we become like him. So, God created us to be like him and we LEARN our sinful ways during childhood. We are a product of our upbringing. Our environment, as we grow up, shapes our nature. Sinfulness is not genetic. There is no “sin gene”. IT IS LEARNED!

The problem with the church today is that there is a general belief that we are cursed by a sinful nature from birth and that there is really nothing we can do about it. And, THAT IS A TRAGEDY! Why? Because as a result of that devils lie, people don’t advance or grow out of their sinful nature and thus it is impossible for them to have the relationship that God wants to have with them.

WE CAN GROW OUT OF OUR SINFUL NATURE, just like we grew into it. What can be learned can be unlearned. HOW? By giving ourselves COMPLETELY to the Lord, in mind, body and spirit. Many will say that they give themselves to the Lord, but they will hang on to that last thread of flesh. If you don’t give yourself completely to The Lord, you may as well not give yourself at all. He doesn’t want part of you. He wants ALL of you.

So what is the truth? Children are born innocent and remain innocent until the reach an age of responsibility where they can understand and answer for their actions. Even while they are learning their sinful nature, they remain innocent until they can understand and accept the meaning of their actions.

We are born to be Gods loving family and he doesn’t create sinful children. We become sinful as a result of our free will. And our free will can also take us AWAY from sin.

In conclusion, you who believe that it is Gods will for any children to end up in Hell, are insulting a loving, good and merciful God. You are saying that he would allow or force a newborn, unbaptized, to suffer the eternal pain of Hell. Or, some of you believe that he would force an unbaptized child to face a judgement to answer for the sin of Adam. WRONG!

 

[Beoga]

(Without adding anything substantial):

Let me guess, you could not hold your own in the debate(s) you were engaged in?

 

[Child_of_Yahweh]

So what is the truth? Children are born innocent and remain innocent until the reach an age of responsibility where they can understand and answer for their actions. Even while they are learning their sinful nature, they remain innocent until they can understand and accept the meaning of their actions.

 

[qh93536]

(Without adding anything substantial):

Let me guess, you could not hold your own in the debate(s) you were engaged in?

Are you trying to be insulting or cute?

 

[Beoga]

Are you trying to be insulting or cute?

I don't know if that is fair that I am limited to just two options. But since you just gave me two, I'll go with insulting.

Anyways, your post has no substance. It makes a lot of claims, but you have no support. I could just as easily make the opposite claims and it will hold just as much weight as yours here (which is none). Biblical support will help your claims, or at the very least, make it so that people will give it more credit.

 

[Theophorus]

I don't know if that is fair that I am limited to just two options. But since you just gave me two, I'll go with insulting.

Anyways, your post has no substance. It makes a lot of claims, but you have no support. I could just as easily make the opposite claims and it will hold just as much weight as yours here (which is none). Biblical support will help your claims, or at the very least, make it so that people will give it more credit.

So when Christ, and God through the prophet Ezekiel say that everyone is accountable for their own sins and none other, would you agree?

Maybe both you and qh93536 are unaware of a soteriology that exists outside of the narrow scope of a judicial tribunal.

 

[Stalwart]

That is a noble cause qh93536 to be speaking on behalf of God, but he already has something which does this: the Bible and you ignored almost all of it with your assertions. Perhaps you don't have as good knowledge as you believe you do about God and his nature. For one, he, being a good God, created man perfectly in his image - to be a reflection of his glory. However, something happened. When Adam rebelled against God, in effect he was saying that he wanted life without God. He wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God. This rebellion against God has permantly marred the once perfect image of mankind as Genesis 5:3 and Romans 5:12-19 suggest.

Now the Bible tells us that Adam was the head of the human race, representing each one of us, who are his descendants. Paul says in Romans 5:12–19 that we sin "in Adam," after the likeness of Adam. In other words, we have the same problem Adam had. When Adam rebelled against God, all human beings, represented by Adam, effectively said that they wanted life without God.

The Bible makes it clear that death is the penalty for our sin, not just the sin of Adam. If you accept the Bible’s account of history, then our sins - not just the sins of 'the other guy' - are responsible for all the death and suffering in the world! In other words, it is really our fault that the world is the way it is. No-one is really 'innocent.'

As to children who die, my little brother died a day or two after he was born (he was very early). The thing is that if he were born just several years later medical technology could have saved him; but that's beside the point. I believe that God will show mercy on those who have not heard or have no way of hearing about the Gospel message (ie. he judges people according to their knowledge) and on those who either cannot understand or comprehend the Gospel message and what it means to (eg. those who are mentally disabled). God being a just God cannot hold those responsible or accountable for something that they had no knowledge of, in my humble opinion. Of course, this may be incorrect.

Finally, I suggest that you take a chill pill. The whole Good News of Jesus Christ is predicted on the bad news of Adam and Eve (ie.man's rebellion against God). Many Christian pastors and teachers say that we are not sinners because we sin, rather we sin because we are sinners and the Bible tends to acknowledge this fact in Psalm 51:5, for example.

God is just and a good God as the Bible reveals clearly.

References:
Why is there death and suffering? by Ken Ham and Jonathan Sarfati of Answers in Genesis.

 

[TruthMiner]

There are at least 4 threads currently in play concerning infant baptism. Is it necessary? Does it mean anything? Will a child go to hell if not baptized? Are children truly innocent?

I am taking a stand here for God. I don’t care what your interpretation of scripture is. I don’t care what your pastor says or how many degrees in theology he has. I don’t care if I am the only person who believes the truth and I stand against a million who believe otherwise. I don’t care because I KNOW GOD AND HIS CHARACTER!

To those who believe that God could or would send a child to Hell, or even force that child to face a judgment, I make this statement to you: YOU DO NOT KNOW HIM! You say the he is a good God, a loving and merciful God. Yet you also say that he would or might send a child to Hell. THERE IS A DEFINATE CONTRADICTION HERE!

A good and just God would not send a child to Hell. WHY? Because CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT! And that is where the confusion lies. Are children innocent, or are they born sinful as many believe?

There are scriptures which were meant to be metaphors and there is other scripture that has been taken out of context. There is scripture that was meant to describe a given people at a given time that theologians have taken to apply to all today. Again, I DON’T CARE what yours or anybody elses interpretation of scripture is. So don’t bother throwing any at me.

Try to understand the nature of a physical Hell. It is a place where there is eternal suffering, both mental and PHYSICAL. It is a place where the spirit of a fallen person will suffer the worst pain imaginable for eternity. To make the statement that God would or even might send a baby or child there is saying that God is heartless and even outright ruthless. It goes completely against his character.

You say that we are born with a sinful nature, or even that we inherit the sin of Adam. In other words, God continues to create us as sinful beings. WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? To me, a sinful nature would be a defect, so you are saying that God continues to create defective children? WHY? DOES HE WANT US TO BE SINFUL? What kind of father would willfully continue to create defective or sinful children?

There is some disagreement as to why God created us. Some will disagree with any theory concerning our purpose, but when asked what they think, they don’t have a clue, they will say that they don’t really know. There are some who believe that God created us so that we would glorify Him. God does not need us to glorify him. He has no ego to feed. He knows exactly who and what he is. He does not need somebody patting him on the back, telling him how great he is.

What he does need is a loving family and the loving relationship with that family. The Angels do not satisfy that need. They do not have free will and therefore their love is not real. It is programmed. God created Adam and the human race with complete free will for a reason. And that reason is the he wanted to let us make the decision to follow him. He wanted to allow us to make the decision to love him, not for who he is, but for HOW HE IS.

God created us to be like him, to share his nature. What good, loving father would not want his child to be like him? You see, we CAN NOT have a true relationship with him until we become like him. So, God created us to be like him and we LEARN our sinful ways during childhood. We are a product of our upbringing. Our environment, as we grow up, shapes our nature. Sinfulness is not genetic. There is no “sin gene”. IT IS LEARNED!

The problem with the church today is that there is a general belief that we are cursed by a sinful nature from birth and that there is really nothing we can do about it. And, THAT IS A TRAGEDY! Why? Because as a result of that devils lie, people don’t advance or grow out of their sinful nature and thus it is impossible for them to have the relationship that God wants to have with them.

WE CAN GROW OUT OF OUR SINFUL NATURE, just like we grew into it. What can be learned can be unlearned. HOW? By giving ourselves COMPLETELY to the Lord, in mind, body and spirit. Many will say that they give themselves to the Lord, but they will hang on to that last thread of flesh. If you don’t give yourself completely to The Lord, you may as well not give yourself at all. He doesn’t want part of you. He wants ALL of you.

So what is the truth? Children are born innocent and remain innocent until the reach an age of responsibility where they can understand and answer for their actions. Even while they are learning their sinful nature, they remain innocent until they can understand and accept the meaning of their actions.

We are born to be Gods loving family and he doesn’t create sinful children. We become sinful as a result of our free will. And our free will can also take us AWAY from sin.

In conclusion, you who believe that it is Gods will for any children to end up in Hell, are insulting a loving, good and merciful God. You are saying that he would allow or force a newborn, unbaptized, to suffer the eternal pain of Hell. Or, some of you believe that he would force an unbaptized child to face a judgement to answer for the sin of Adam. WRONG!

Romans 5:12-19 says you are wrong.

 

[BarbB]

As to children who die, my little brother died a day or two after he was born (he was very early). The thing is that if he were born just several years later medical technology could have saved him; but that's beside the point. I believe that God will show mercy on those who have not heard or have no way of hearing about the Gospel message (ie. he judges people according to their knowledge) and on those who either cannot understand or comprehend the Gospel message and what it means to (eg. those who are mentally disabled). God being a just God cannot hold those responsible or accountable for something that they had no knowledge of, in my humble opinion. Of course, this may be incorrect.

qh - this poster was actually supporting your position on infants! See the above.

Edited to add: As do I support your position on infants. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace. Desired but absolutely not essential for salvation.

 

[frumanchu]

Pelagianism is still alive and well I see

I personally believe God will not send infants to Hell, NOT because they are not sinners in need of salvation and tainted with the stain of sin (because they are on both accounts), but because God chooses to glorify Himself in showing mercy and grace upon them.

If He were choose otherwise, who here dares levy a charge against Him?

 

[BarbB]

Not me, but isn't the result the same, fru? Infants are not consigned to hell?

 

[frumanchu]

Not me, but isn't the result the same, fru? Infants are not consigned to hell?

The result is the same, but the reasons behind it are completely, and very significantly, different.

 

[oworm]

and wisdom comes with age.

Actually wisdom comes with knowledge. The book of proverbs is full of it. I know many aged people who are anything but wise!

 

[TruthMiner]

Pelagianism is still alive and well I see

Oh I see you found yourself a label to stick on something. Well then, the point must therefore be invalid in that case.

I personally believe God will not send infants to Hell, NOT because they are not sinners in need of salvation and tainted with the stain of sin (because they are on both accounts), but because God chooses to glorify Himself in showing mercy and grace upon them.

If He were choose otherwise, who here dares levy a charge against Him?

Do you resort to your imagination on other matters as well?

 

[qh93536]

Actually wisdom comes with knowledge. The book of proverbs is full of it. I know many aged people who are anything but wise!

You are correct. Here is the problem I see with the church. People become theologically filled and mistake their knowledge for wisdom. Wisdom tells you how to use the knowledge that you have. It tells you what to do with it and most importantly, it tells you if the knowledge is accurate.

 

[qh93536]

Do you resort to your imagination on other matters as well?

You think that God needs to Glorify himself by sending babies to Hell and delivering them from it??

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO GLORIFY HIMSELF! What you are describing is a human behavior that is tied to arrogance and pride.

 

[TruthMiner]

You think that God needs to Glorify himself by sending babies to Hell and delivering them from it??

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO GLORIFY HIMSELF! What you are describing is a human behavior that is tied to arrogance and pride.

One should not be so presumptuous.

 

[frumanchu]

Oh I see you found yourself a label to stick on something. Well then, the point must therefore be invalid in that case.

The church stood pretty firmly and soundly against the Pelagian heresy almost 1500 years ago. I am quite able to defend against this error from Scripture just as they were then. I'm simply echoing the sentiment of Scripture that there is nothing new under the sun.

Do you resort to your imagination on other matters as well?

Are all your retorts as bereft of substance as this one?

 

[wanderphilos]

In Matthew 24:19 Jesus says 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! He is speaking of His coming because even the babies in their uterus will be taken to heaven with Him. You are correct about your ascertion. Babies go to heaven.

 

[TruthMiner]

The church stood pretty firmly and soundly against the Pelagian heresy almost 1500 years ago. I am quite able to defend against this error from Scripture just as they were then. I'm simply echoing the sentiment of Scripture that there is nothing new under the sun.

Of course, you agree with everything else the church of that time decided too right?

Or do you just pick and choose?