Original Sin or Blessing

[Toney]

This quote by Henny in another thread got me thinking about the nature of the western formulation of Christianity:

Christians ... from an historically Western/Hellenistic cultural platform, Messianics generally from an historically Eastern/Jewish cultural platform. While vastly different, our goals are the same, to serve, obey and honor G-d.

You could hear this in a Christian sermon: “If you don’t believe in original sin, the consequence of Adam and Eve’s disobedience, just throw out Jesus and Mary – you don’t need them.”

Essentially, the (Western) Doctrine of Original Sin teaches that somehow we inherited this primeval defect, man's nature is fallen, and that our souls entered the world tainted. It is further taught that Yeshua’s passion atoned/reversed the sin of Adam and Eve’s disobedience and that Yeshua "..came into the world to save sinners."

Hix made the following point in a thread seeking to identify some sort of orthodoxy in MJism (emphasis mine):

…church doctrine shouldn’t always be taken as true simply because it’s church doctrine. In fact, I showed several verses that say sacrifice is not necessary, nor is belief in a messiah for the remission of sins. Unless the Bible is self contradictory, there must be a different avenue, a different truth in the Bible that must be applied. I’m not sure if I have found it yet but I trust HaShem will guide me.

Some Christological discussion focusing on these three issues could be productive:

1. Original Sin, is it contrary to Torah?

2. The divinity of Christ. Might it be better if MJ represented a middle ground, so to speak? Something like, “Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah, but he never claimed to be divine nor is he divine in the sense that HaShem is divine.”

3. Should we occupy ourselves less with the temporal human Yeshua in favour of the eternal logos, the “Cosmic Christ” as Matthew Fox* terms him? Might this lead to a clearer understanding of his earthly mission and to a definition of his divinity mutually acceptable to both Christians and Messianics?

What do you think?

*Matthew Fox is a defrocked Dominican (Catholic) Priest who was excommunicated for his heretical beliefs. Among his many books are, “Coming of the Cosmic Christ” and “Original Blessing.”

 

[Toney]

I neglected to include this quote from Yafet in the OP, as I had intended:

The answer to why I, and many others, came to Messianic Judaism falls into the territory of "discovery of falsehoods" in Christianity. Many of us felt deceived and betrayed. I suppose that's really more of why we left Christianity. However, why we specifically chose to put our faith in Messianic Judaism for all together different reasons. Judaism appealed to us for reasons of truth and beauty.

I wonder if the doctrine of original sin is one of those "falsehoods?"

 

[sojeru]

Hello Your Excllency Adon Toney,
and greetings!

It is my sincere prayer and desire that as His Excellency reads this post that he and his loved ones will be in good health, in Peace, and prospering most copiously in all things; all thanks be to HaShem most blessed is He!

i will just say:
1. no, in a sense, "original sin" is not a false hood- however, to the application christianity takes it too is false.
a. Some people did not sin (i.e. Benjamin)
b. But all is appointed to die- sinless or not
c. Will be corrected in the Final Redemption

Also, the sin of Adam was a blessing to himself and in obeying G-D!
However, there needs to be a Tikkun for that sin that was done (letter c).

2. We need to focus on the MAN- The RABBI, His Majesty Yeshuah the Messiah and focus on the Logos (written Torah) and Rima (Oral Torah) at the same time.
However, the Kabbalistic nature of these things should be studied after having a very sound understanding of these pre-requisites.

3. Disagreeing with a "Divine" Messiah (i.e. Diety as in being ADONAI [HaShem]- though this name will be given to His Majesty Yeshuah) is not Judaism- Judaism calls that idolatry.


Shalom u'brachot
Antonio

 

[JewishHeart]

original sin is a judaic in expression... i will proove it.

Pesha is the word for transgression. Many rabis and tzadikim have said that the word pesha stands for p- pri sh-shel a-haetz or "fruit of the tree". So transgression is a result of the fruit of the tree. Isaiah 53 uses the word Pesha when it says , " he was bruised for our transgressions (pesha)."

 

[sojeru]

very good Jewish heart! I applaud you!!

and it looks like you will be keeping it to a Rabbinical expression of "original sin".
todda!

 

[visionary]

Original sin and how is it applied to us today that gets me concerned. While I may be born in a body that is weakened by the multitude of generations of transgressions from creation on, it does not mean that should or will give in to think or do those things that I should not.

Then we get into the immaculate conception of Yeshua. Did he have an advantage over us? The scripture says that he was like us, and did not sin. Mary was like you and I where the generations of sins had taken their toll upon the mind and body of Mary. Mary was a sinner, and even though she had Yeshua for a son, it did not stop her from failing to living the immaculate standard.

No one can claim an advantage over another when it comes to dealing with sin. We are all tempted, and by the grace of God, will walk the walk like Yeshua and sin not. But if we do sin, then we have an advocate, Yeshua, before our heavenly Father pleading our case, receiving forgiveness, and with that we can go on and sin no more.
There will come a day when on the Day of Atonement which will be a reality for us, we will be included in the wedding ceremony and united with Yeshua as a bride forever.

Jeremiah 33:11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.

It will be those who are participating in the feasts, they will receive the blessings in their attendance. They will have their hearts prepared for the Day of Atonement, and they will be looking up to heaven to see the fulfillment. By faith, they will be ready and as promised, those that are prepared will be rewarded.

Many have wondered why the Lord would say this

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

But it is clear that knowledge of God is crucial to the changes that are necessary, those things that are spiritually discerned. We can sacrifice, our favorite foods, our favorite habits, our favorite understandings, all in the name of religion but if we do not spiritually understand the importance of it all in God's eys and realize that these are truly not sacrifices but are learnings in the new life, preparing for eternity. The Lord is merciful to us, in all our failings, and it is change and renewing, transforming progress that he wishes to see in our hearts and lifestyles. We are to be changed into the likeness of Yeshua.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

If we understand the mind of Yeshua better, we would not be hard on the path of another believer and the path they take in their walk with Yeshua. Just because they have not walked the same path as you, does not mean that they are not following Yeshua at the pace that is right for them.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

As a child learns to walk, just because they fall on their little bottoms a lot, does not mean that they are failures, or that they are wrong in what they are doing. They are the guiltless, because of their lack of experience. The knowledge they gain with every attampt to walk, comes from the help they receive from watching you walk, from having you hold their hands and lead them in the direction they should go. So it is with our Heavenly Father, He is leading, He has given us our example in Yeshua and we are to learn to walk the spiritual walk.