Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception

[isshinwhat]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=42247&page=1&highlight=christian+arianism

Here we go.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=42247&page=1&highlight=christian+arianism
God Bless,
Neal

Dearest Neal:

Christ is in our midst! He is and always shall be!

And from that same site above go down to #12, and see Philip's entire post which I printed below:

"St Gregory of Nazianzus:
"If anyone has put his trust in Him as a Man without a human mind, he is really bereft of mind, and quite unworthy of salvation. For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole.

"Christ assumed every nature the we have. He did not, however, bear any guilt for that nature. It may be the Western understanding of Original Sin that is causing the difficulty."
---

When I went to your suggested site, Neal, it didn't take me to the correct location. I guess this website needs help. That is why I cut and pasted Philip's post, so you would notice it. Hope that is acceptable.

What Philip is saying - crystal clear - is that the Western understanding of Original Sin may be the problem. The East says that we don't inherit Original sin, we only inherit the curse of death. Notice that Christ suffered and died (therefore, He willingly suffered the consequences of Adam's Original Sin - pain, suffering and death) and by His death He trampled down death.

However Christ was a Perfect Man - no blemishes - He was the Perfect lamb who died for our sins and set us free from the consequences of the Original Sin of Adam.

Hope this helps

Elizabeth

(Neal, why don't you get an icon too. What is that cartoon you have? I didn't recognize you at first. Is this Halloween? LOL)

 

[isshinwhat]

What Philip is saying - crystal clear - is that the Western understanding of Original Sin may be the problem.

But the West doesn't teach that we inheret the guilt of Adam:

...Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

This is what I am trying to get at. The difference, I believe, is in semantics, more than theology. The Original Sin was Adam's, but we speak of fallen man as having Original Sin with the understanding that "...Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

This brings to question the statement that, "the Immaculate Conception is not necessary as we are all born Immaculately." I think we have misunderstood one another. The Immaculate Conception states that Mary was conceived in a baptized state, having never tasted the bad fruits of separation from God within her soul. "The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.[/quote]

From that quote, I do not believe that the Immaculate Conception would be considered unnecessary, anymore than Baptism for an infant, for the reason given, that "we are all born immaculate." We are not all born in a Baptized state as the Forerunner was, nor conceived in one, as Mary was.

The East says that we don't inherit Original sin, we only inherit the curse of death.

From "ORTHODOX CATECHISM
Basic Teachings of the Orthodox Faith"
by Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios

A.) Spiritual death. That is, the separation of man from God, the source of all goodness. B.) Bodily death. That is, the separation of the body from the soul, the return of the body to the earth. C.) The shattering and distortion of the "image." That is, darkness of mind, depravity and corruption of the heart, loss of independence, loss of free will, and tendency towards evil. Since then "the imagination of man's heart is evil "(Genesis 8:21). Man constantly thinks of evil. D.) Guilt. That is, a bad conscience, the shame that made him want to hide from God. E.) Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin. We all of us participate in original sin because we are all descended from the same forefather, Adam.

God Bless,

Neal

P.S. I do not mean for this to be a debate, but a discussion between brothers and sisters, East and West. I also do not want this in IDD. As a former Senior Moderator of that forum, I have seen what happens when discussions of this nature get bought into that forum. Please do not think that I am prostelytizing. I am not. I am trying to find where our differences actually lie, as my time conversing with Eastern Christians has shown me it is not where we think they do.

 

[isshinwhat]

Elizabeth, I put up that cartoon, a frame from the cartoon "Gummi Bears" as a private joke between a few friends and I. I change it from time to time. Invariably I will have an icon, a photo of Padre Pio or Thomas Merton, "The Christ of St. John of the Cross": by Salvador Dali, or any other number of things. Keep an eye out for the next instillation!!!

God Bless,

Neal

 

[MariaRegina]

My dearest Neal:

Individual bishops within the Orthodox Church are not considered infallible.

Regarding Original sin, I recently went to a conference where Orthodox Priests were discussing Original Sin - the place was charitably divided - some believed that Original Sin is a "stain" on the soul that is washed off at Baptism - quite the Catholic belief that was taught in the Baltimore Catechism of old. Has that belief been discarded by the Vatican?

Others believe that we do not inherit Original Sin, but that we are born good with the consequence of Adam's sin - death, pain and suffering. They also don't believe that our wills are weakened, which is why some saints even from birth are good. Look at The Theotokos, St. John the Baptist, St. Dominic, St. Seraphim of Sarov, to name a few.

Just a thought.

YSIC
Elizabeth

 

[isshinwhat]

Has that belief been discarded by the Vatican?

What I posted was from the new Catechism. I really cannot answer outside of that without researching further.

Look at The Theotokos, St. John the Baptist, St. Dominic, St. Seraphim of Sarov, to name a few.

You know our belief on why Mary was good. John the Baptist, too, was cleansed within the womb, both of our Churches teach. As for Sts. Dominic and St. Seraphim of Sarov, I would like to read more. Do you have any recommendations?

God Bless,

Neal

 

[MariaRegina]

You know our belief on why Mary was good. John the Baptist, too, was cleansed within the womb, both of our Churches teach. As for Sts. Dominic and St. Seraphim of Sarov, I would like to read more.
Neal

Dearest Neal in Christ,

Christ is glorified in His Saints!
May He also be glorified in us!

If you would ask our good Dominican Tertiary moderator, I'm sure he can recommend a very good biography of St. Dominic. In reading one of St. Dominic's biographies, it said that when St. Dominic died he admitted that he had never committed a mortal sin in his life. I think the same thing is true for St. Seraphim. At any rate, both of these saints radiated the Light of Christ from their bodies during their lifetime. They both achieved theosis while they lived on this earth, which is the perfect union with God. Both I think are incorrupt. Their bodies have not decayed. In fact, when the Dominicans received permission to view the remains of St. Dominic, the odor of flowers permeated the air.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Photini]

Here's an article about St Seraphim of Sarov.
Here!

 

[MariaRegina]

Dearest Neal and other viewers of this thread:

The Dormition of the Theotokos

Since the feast of the Assumption is celebrated on August 15 - less than two weeks away. I though we could discuss this feast day in light of Original Sin.

The Orthodox Christians celebrate this feast as the Falling Asleep of the Theotokos (The Dormition of the Theotokos).

Again, one of the effects of Original Sin is death. Orthodoxy teaches that Mary willing accepted death. Church tradition teaches that when the Apostles opened her tomb three days later to show St.Thomas, since he wasn't there when she had died,the tomb was empty. This is what we read during Matins (Orthros) for the feast of the Dormition.

Do Catholics believe that Mary died and was then assumed? Or do you believe that she escaped death and was assumed into heaven?

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[artnalex]

Hi, I was just lurking and came across this post from CopticOrthodox:

Because (according to the Eastern Fathers) Mary died before her body was assumed into heaven, she must have had original sin... otherwise she would have not aged, and would have been immortal. Thus many Eastern Orthodox theologians have concluded that Mary must have had original sin - but remained sinless by God's grace.

Does the Eastern Orthodox teach that Original Sin causes aging? If so, then Jesus had Original Sin, as he aged from a a child to a man. Does the EO teach that Jesus had Original Sin?

I think I am confused. Someone help me with the Eastern Orthodox's teachings, please?

 

[Reader Nilus]

The effect of the fall is death. The Blessed Theotokos was subject to that. What Orthodox teach is that we are not born with a taint, we are not born guilty. We make our choices and we become guilty by our own choices, no one elses. Though Adam's sin death entered the world, and that is what everyone has to deal with. Our Lord gave His life, not that anyone could take it from Him.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi, I was just lurking and came across this post from CopticOrthodox:

Does the Eastern Orthodox teach that Original Sin causes aging? If so, then Jesus had Original Sin, as he aged from a a child to a man. Does the EO teach that Jesus had Original Sin?

I think I am confused. Someone help me with the Eastern Orthodox's teachings, please?

Dear Art:

I was taught that Christ became Man to save man. He assumed our human nature, but He was perfect God and perfect Man. As perfect Man, he wasn't subject to sickness -- even doctors say that a person has to be weakened to become infected by bacteria and virus. However, he did suffer the pain of circumcision and the pain on the Cross. Pain, suffering, and death result from the Ancestral Curse (Original Sin). So Christ willingly accepted suffering and death for us. He didn't have any personal sin nor personal guilt. But he assumed our sins to save us. St. Paul talks about this in Romans. In I John 3:5, St. John says of Christ, "in Him there is no sin." I think this is consistent with Roman Catholic teachings also. (Please do see what your priest says.)

Hope this helps!

Could you look at the previous post and help us with the Catholic Church teaching on the Assumption?

Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[artnalex]

So, from an EO point-of-view was Jesus born with what the Catholics call Original Sin?

And can anyone answer the question about aging [Does the Eastern Orthodox teach that Original Sin causes aging?]?

 

[artnalex]

Elizabeth,
the Catholic Church's position is that all were born with the "stain" of Original Sin (not peronal guilt), except for Jesus and Mary.

I hope that helps you.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Art:

I'm going to check with the OCA website to verify the answer to your question regarding Jesus.

http://www.oca.org

However, were you taught that the Virgin Mary died or was she just assumed into heaven without suffering death? I remember that the nuns in the Catholic School taught us the same as the Orthodox believe: that all the Apostles except Thomas were gathered together when Mary died. After her death, Thomas came and asked to see her sacred body. When they rolled away the stone, her body was gone. From that the Apostles concluded that she was assumed into heaven.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth

 

[artnalex]

I was always taught that she was assumed into heaven, however, I am not sure that the Church has an official position yet as to whether or not she "died", whether she went into "dormition", or whether she was just assumed into heaven all of a sudden. What she does teach is that she was definitely "assumed" into heaven. Hence, her body never returned to dust.

As for the CCC :
"e. Para. 966: "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death" (LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16). The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians . . . "

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Art:

I couldn't find a definitive answer to your question. Here's what I did find:

In 1 John 3:5, St. John says of Christ, "in Him there is no sin."

Christ voluntary suffered sin and death, which are the effects of Original Sin, but He was free of any sin, personal or original.

Does this help?

Regarding aging - Christ matured as a man, but 33 isn't old.

The icons that St. Luke painted of the Virgin Mary show her as a young woman (probably the age she was when he painted her). Apparently she didn't age much either.

Several Orthodox saints, although old, didn't have many or any wrinkles at all.

Then we have many saints (Orthodox and Catholic) who are incorrupt. That defies Original Sin!

Have a good night, Art. And I hope this helps!

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[artnalex]

Regarding aging - Christ matured as a man, but 33 isn't old.

No offense, but I didn't say he was old. Moreover, I think when you mature in age, it is called aging. So he aged. That doesn't imply anything, really.

 

[artnalex]

Goodnight! Get some rest.

What am I doing up at this time of night? [12:35am]

 

[MariaRegina]

Goodnight! See if your priest can answer the question regarding Mary - if Roman Catholics have to believe that she died.

Thanks,
Elizabeth