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Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception

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CopticOrthodox

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In my extrememly limited understanding, when Adam sinned he received the consequence of sin, death, seperation from God, and all of his decendents were born in this state. Through the Incarnation, Christ emptied Himself and took on this state, but being God He did not sin. He took on all the sins of the world, and hung on the Cross. He didn't just defeat death, the symptom or consequence, but He defeated the cause, sin. He lived and died without sinning, defeating sin and death. His Spirit and Body were separated, ie He died. His Spirit decended into Hades, but Satan had no power to hold Him since He did not sin. He broke assunder the bars of iron and the gates of brass, and led the rightous from Hades to Paradise. He Rose, and through Baptism we can participate in His death, and rise with Him a new creation.
 
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MariaRegina

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CopticOrthodox said:
In my extrememly limited understanding, when Adam sinned he received the consequence of sin, death, seperation from God, and all of his decendents were born in this state. Through the Incarnation, Christ emptied Himself and took on this state, but being God He did not sin. He took on all the sins of the world, and hung on the Cross. He didn't just defeat death, the symptom or consequence, but He defeated the cause, sin. He lived and died without sinning, defeating sin and death. His Spirit and Body were separated, ie He died. His Spirit decended into Hades, but Satan had no power to hold Him since He did not sin. He broke assunder the bars of iron and the gates of brass, and led the rightous from Hades to Paradise. He Rose, and through Baptism we can participate in His death, and rise with Him a new creation.

Great job, dearest Coptic Christian!

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is Risen!

St. Irenaeus stated:

God became man so that man could become God.

We cannot become God in his nature, but we can put on Christ and become deified through God's Grace (Divine Energies).

In this way, Christ has defeated death, eternal death. Christ is the Light and Life. And we who have been baptized into Christ's death and risen with Christ have the promise of eternal life, because Christ destroyed Death by His Death.

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!

Elizabeth
 
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CopticOrthodox

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When we partake of the Holy Body and Blood, It mingles with our body and blood, and so we are able to participate in the Divine Nature. It is not that we are taken into the divinity, but that by the grace of God we participate in the Divine Nature through Communion. But now we're really getting off topic.
 
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MariaRegina

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CopticOrthodox said:
When we partake of the Holy Body and Blood, It mingles with our body and blood, and so we are able to participate in the Divine Nature. It is not that we are taken into the divinity, but that by the grace of God we participate in the Divine Nature through Communion. But now we're really getting off topic.

See the new thread! The Holy Mysteries - dare we speak?
 
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isshinwhat

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I was told by an Eastern brother that death, which entered the world through the Sin of Adam, was what lead us into personal sin. I had gotten off on a thought, but I wanted to make sure this was actually a part of Eastern theology before I went any further. I truly feel we have approached the same truth of Original Sin, just from different angles. Our approaches are different, but not contrary. I feel that the Immaculate Conception as it is defined by Rome, is not contrary to the Eastern view of Original Sin.

Neal
 
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Maximus

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From isshinwhat: ...Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."

Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What, from these statements from the Catechism, disagrees with Orthodox thought?

God Bless,

Neal

I don't see anything that you quoted above that disagrees with Orthodox thought, Neal. What you quoted is orthodox.

In fact, I was surprised by it. I had been told that the RCC teaches that Original Sin means we all inherit the guilt, as well as the consequences, of what Adam and Eve did.

We simply do not see the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as necessary, given that no human being is born guilty. Human beings are born into a humanity that has broken fellowship with God, with sin and death as consequences. They are not born guilty of the sins of their remote ancestors.
 
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isshinwhat

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In fact, I was surprised by it. I had been told that the RCC teaches that Original Sin means we all inherit the guilt, as well as the consequences, of what Adam and Eve did.

We simply do not see the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as necessary, given that no human being is born guilty. Human beings are born into a humanity that has broken fellowship with God, with sin and death as consequences. They are not born guilty of the sins of their remote ancestors.

That is what I wanted to hear!!!! There are so many misconceptions between us. The scholastics, though gifted, often take liberties with the faith which go beyond the scope of what the Church has defined. Read this as well, please.

". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Do you believe Jesus was "born into a humanity that has broken fellowship with God," or do you believe that in Christ this relationship was healed? That he suffered death and the penalties of the Sin of Adam is not in question. What exactly do you mean when you say Jesus suffered from Original Sin? I feel we may be taking more for granted than either one thought. We may be able to reconcile a few differences here!

Deus in adjutorium meum intende!

Neal
 
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Maximus

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Man, Neal, I wish I was better qualified to answer you.

I don't personally see anything heretical in the Immaculate Conception as you have presented it, coupled with what you presented from the CCC regarding Original Sin. I was also told by my old priest (a great and holy man, BTW) that we Orthodox are free to believe in the IC, but it is not mandatory that we do.

I guess I would say that most Orthodox believe the real Immaculate Conception occurred at Jesus' birth rather than Mary's, that it was impossible for Christ, as God as well as Man, to have been born in a state of broken fellowship with Himself. It seems to me the RC idea of the Immaculate Conception stops the buck, so to speak, one generation further back than does the usual Orthodox notion of it.

Please understand something, Neal. I am very pro-Roman Catholic and thus may not be typical of all Orthodox. There are many like me, to be sure, but there are others at the opposite end of the spectrum.

I tend to think that Roman and Orthodox Catholics really agree on about 99.99% of things.

The real hang-up, no matter what the hotheads may claim, is the Papacy and its authority. Even there I think we have much more common ground than many realize.
 
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isshinwhat

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Absolutely, and amen! I've got a great book that I think you would enjoy. I can either send it to you or give you the Title... I guess I can go ahead and do that. I bought it at an Abbey nearby and couldn't put it down.

Monks of Mount Athos: A Western Monk's Extraordinary Spiritual Journey on Eastern Holy Ground
Author: M. Basil Pennington

Binding: Paperback, 256 pages
Publisher: SkyLight Paths Publishing
Published Date: 03/01/2003
List: USD $18.95
ISBN: 1893361780

A most excellent read. Fr. Basil spent many months on Mt. Athos. The book is his diary. Drop me a PM if you would like me to send you my copy.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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CopticOrthodox

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I thought it might be worthwhile to post an Eastern Catholic perspective on this issue. I don't necessary agree or disagree with this, but it may or may not be of some use in the discussion:

"IMMACULATE CONCEPTION:

The dispute with the Orthodox over Mary's immaculate conception is mostly about semantics. Traditionally Eastern and Western Christianity have arrived at very different definitions of "original sin," which means that we approach Mary's immaculate state from different perspectives. Both Orthodox and Catholic Christians readily admit that Mary never sinned, as you know from speaking with your friend. According to the Western definition original sin is a sinful nature, and anyone who has it is powerless to stop sinning. Because Mary was sinless, she must not have had original sin.

In contrast, the Eastern Fathers defined original sin first and foremost as the onset of mortality and death. Because (according to the Eastern Fathers) Mary died before her body was assumed into heaven, she must have had original sin... otherwise she would have not aged, and would have been immortal. Thus many Eastern Orthodox theologians have concluded that Mary must have had original sin - but remained sinless by God's grace.

As you can see, this entire dispute goes back to how one chooses to define "original sin." Because the Eastern Catholic Churches follow the guidance of the Pope of Rome, we believe that Mary was freed from original sin at the very first moment of her existence."
-Dr. Anthony Dragani, EWTN EC Expert: http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum25&recnu=9&number=370236

more: http://www.east2west.org/discus/messages/10/47.html?1025118443
 
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Maximus

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I don't have much time to post right now, but here is an interesting web site that addresses some of the issues we have been discussing:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/NewQ_Anew.html .

I am sorely tempted to get that book from you for free, Neal, but I will try to find it and buy it myself! ;)

I recently purchased a nice hardback edition of the CCC but have only begun reading it.
 
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isshinwhat

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Maximus, my friend, I wouldn't have offered if I didn't want you to have it to read. :) Either way, just let me know if you cannot find it. I think you would enjoy it.

Anthony Dragani is a great man of the Faith. His posts are what originally got me interested in Eastern theology and practice during my conversion 3+ years ago. Thanks for posting that.

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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I have heard many orthodox say that Jesus suffered from Original Sin, i.e., "what is not assumed is not healed," but in reading through several Orthodox sites, I have come across the following statements:

According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church (from the first centuries and up to our days), all men are subject to original sin - all, including also the Mother of God. And all have to be redeemed by the sacrifice of the Son of God. The Most Holy Virgin herself numbers herself among the saved, calling God her Saviour: "Šand my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Sacred Scripture knows only one man who did not partake of original sin - the God-Man Christ Jesus, Who was conceived in a supernatural manner - by the Holy Spirit.

http://www.stjohndc.org/Homilies/9609a.htm[/quote]

I am trying to do a study on the Eastern and Western approaches to Original sin, and from both sides I seem to be getting a whole lot of private theologians' opinions, but very few from the Churches, themselves. From what I have read from the Churches' theologies seem to compliment eachother, rather than conflict.

Thanks for the help,

Neal
 
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MariaRegina

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isshinwhat said:
I have heard many orthodox say that Jesus suffered from Original Sin. Neal

Dear Neal:

Just because some Orthodox Christians say that Jesus suffered from Original Sin doesn't make it a dogma of the faith. This has never been defined by an Ecumenical Council.

It has been defined (and I am only paraphrasing) that Jesus Christ is perfect man and perfect God. Is man perfect when he has the seed of death within him like a time bomb? NO. But Christ is Perfect. Therefore it must follow that Christ does not suffer from the effects of the Original curse, since He is Perfect Man.

I hope a flame war does not result.

Elizabeth
 
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Maximus

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I never heard of anyone teaching that Jesus suffered from Original Sin. How could that be?

"One Man alone, the Intermediary between God and man, is free from the bonds of sinful birth, because He was born of a Virgin, and because in being born He did not experience the touch of sin" (St. Ambrose of Milan, quoted in St. John Maximovitch's The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God, p. 55).

"Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birthgiving, did not experience earthly taint" (St. Ambrose, ibid).
 
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isshinwhat

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CopticOrthodox wrote in the thread, "Christian Arianism"

Adam's nature became fallen when he sinned. That nature was passed on to all his decendents, including the Virgin Mary. That is the nature that Christ took from her. One the cross He defeated the sin and death in that nature, since He is sinless, and infinite. He descended to Hades, but Satan had no power to hold Him, as He had committed no sin, and so He broke open the way to Heaven, and led the righteous from Hades to Pardise. If you haven't read St. Cyril of Alexandria's book on the Incarnation, I'm told it's incredible, and in print now. I haven't had a chance to find it yet but I want to. Maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems like you're making a criticism most directly of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which seems to make it impossible for Christ to save us since then He is not assuming our fallen nature, but an unfallen nature.

Is saying that Christ assumed our fallen nature not the same thing as saying He suffered from Original Sin?

What exactly does it mean, "What is not assumed is not healed?"

God Bless,

Neal
 
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