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Origin of God's Morality.

Ultima4257

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It says in Genesis that man became like God in the sense we both know good and evil. My question is how did God determine what is "good" and what is "evil." The question I guess would be if God didn't create evil, then what is the origin of evil? Some say Satan is responsible, but did he actually create evil, or did he just embrace something that already existed? If God is infinite and He stays the same yesterday, today and forever then we could reason that God has at the very least always known of the potential for evil since it is directly opposite to His nature. Freewill doesn't really have much meaning unless there is the potential to choose in opposition to something, or someone. I guess the real question would be how was the character of God determined and what factors were involved.
 

Quid est Veritas?

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I don't follow exactly what you are asking, the question is a bit muddled in my opinion.

First, how do you define evil? The original hebrew does not really have the same connotations as the English, closer perhaps to 'disagreeable' or 'bad'.
Evil can be said to exists only as a shadow of good, being not something itself but merely the absence of the other. For no one does evil for evil's sake, but searching for a 'good'. For instance, a serial killer doesn't kill to kill, but for the feeling it brings him or a murderer for some other aim, which is a good to that person.
Some argue it doesn't exist, that what appears evil to us would disappear in the big picture, that it had some worth, although these tend to be pantheists and I disagree with this contention.
Regardless, we cannot discuss the presumed character of God without agreeing on terms.

Second, is the problem of the radical nature of God. Temporal creatures such as you and I cannot properly grasp a atemporal being. For God would see every moment of our lives in the same eternal instant, thus see what acts we do as we do them, but seeing all such acts for our entire lives, thus maintaining free will. We have difficulty conceptualising this aspect, but then there are much greater mysteries. We can only understand God by applying human terms we understand like just or powerful or whatever, which really does not do the concept of God justice. Our terminology is woefully inadequate as we cannot really grasp His nature.
To borrow from CS Lewis, if we had a race that lived in a 2 dimensional world and they approach a cube, they would see a line. If they walk around it a square. They would not be able to conceptualise the cube even if someone tried to explain it to them as their worldview would have difficulty seeing a third dimension. The same inadequacy of understanding applies to God.

What we do know is what we can grasp and then try and backtrack to an understanding of what is essentially unknown and will of course be flawed, regarding God. In the analogy above, the square.
Now, most nations have more or less the same morality - don't steal, don't murder etc. - with notable exceptions like Sparta for stealing and such. The vast majority of moral codes agree on most points. Therefore, we can surmise, but not prove, a baseline human morality which must be either instinctual or cultural or of divine origin. The problem with instinctual origin is that it frequently disagrees with our instincts as when for instance someone is in a burning building - instinctively we would stay away, but morally we know we ought to help. In that word ought, we find morality as not being instinctual. If it was cultural, we would expect more differences than we see, although significant aspects of morality are definitely cultural constructs. We can construe this is from evolutionary development of cultures, but this fails the litmus test for concepts like theft, for these exist even in societies lacking the idea of personal property.
Therefore, the probability for a 'divine morality' at least in part is high.
Therefore we have a side of our square, that God maintains a form of our morality (or more precisely, we maintain a form of God's).

Third, no society worships an evil god. Even those with ambigious gods like Seth or Kali, they aren't evil. For the god of death or famine also keeps those things at bay and often they are more gods of change than decay. It is a conceptual shift we must make because popular media has made us convinced that acolytes of evil gods exist cutting hearts from chests etc. when they really aren't supported historically.
Humanity in general either sees its gods as neutral or benevolent regarding humanity.

Fourth, depends on your acceptance of historic revelations. God is unknowable by definition, but if He reveals aspects to individuals and we accept that revelation as accurate, then you base your view on that. For Christianity we have the actual Incarnation of God Himself, so there would be your answer.

If you disregard point four and depending on your definition of evil, we can at least say that God is likely a moral being, benevolent or at least neutral to humanity, whose morality is similar to our own as it is likely a vague shadow of God's morality.

Note: I have written this from the aspect that you accept God/s exists. If that first has to be proven to you, then nothing I have said would apply to your conception and the reasoning would be radically altered.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It says in Genesis that man became like God in the sense we both know good and evil. My question is how did God determine what is "good" and what is "evil." The question I guess would be if God didn't create evil, then what is the origin of evil? Some say Satan is responsible, but did he actually create evil, or did he just embrace something that already existed? If God is infinite and He stays the same yesterday, today and forever then we could reason that God has at the very least always known of the potential for evil since it is directly opposite to His nature. Freewill doesn't really have much meaning unless there is the potential to choose in opposition to something, or someone. I guess the real question would be how was the character of God determined and what factors were involved.
Evil is the absence of God.
 
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Ed1wolf

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It says in Genesis that man became like God in the sense we both know good and evil. My question is how did God determine what is "good" and what is "evil." The question I guess would be if God didn't create evil, then what is the origin of evil? Some say Satan is responsible, but did he actually create evil, or did he just embrace something that already existed? If God is infinite and He stays the same yesterday, today and forever then we could reason that God has at the very least always known of the potential for evil since it is directly opposite to His nature. Freewill doesn't really have much meaning unless there is the potential to choose in opposition to something, or someone. I guess the real question would be how was the character of God determined and what factors were involved.
God didn't need to determine what is good or evil. He is good by nature, so it is part of who He is, no need to determine. Everything He does is good and He cannot go against His own character, so He cannot do evil. Evil is anything that goes against what is good, and God is the embodiment of goodness. So anything that goes against God's character is evil. So when Satan went against God, He invented or created evil.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It says in Genesis that man became like God in the sense we both know good and evil. My question is how did God determine what is "good" and what is "evil." The question I guess would be if God didn't create evil, then what is the origin of evil? Some say Satan is responsible, but did he actually create evil, or did he just embrace something that already existed? If God is infinite and He stays the same yesterday, today and forever then we could reason that God has at the very least always known of the potential for evil since it is directly opposite to His nature. Freewill doesn't really have much meaning unless there is the potential to choose in opposition to something, or someone. I guess the real question would be how was the character of God determined and what factors were involved.

On the topic of evil, the ancient fathers of the Christian Church quite emphatically objected to cosmic dualism. Good and evil were not seen as equal but opposite cosmic powers in the cosmos (as Zoroastrians and later Manichaeans did); instead evil lacked any objective existence. Therefore evil is not good's opposite, but rather the deprivation of good. In the way that light is actually real, and darkness is the absence or deprivation of light.

Evil, therefore, doesn't have an origin. Satan isn't the source of evil, because the devil is a mere creature. The devil is evil in the same way that Pol Pot was evil. Evil happens when good is rejected, twisted, or otherwise found lacking or distorted. Evil is a malformation. Evil, in a Christian context, is generally seen to arise from the misuse and abuse of the natural passions; and from this bent disposition wherein the passions are misaligned and generally broken comes sin.

It wouldn't thus be, necessarily, accurate to say that "evil ... is directly opposite to His nature"; rather evil is where creatures function out of the good order which God purposed for creation. Since evil has no intrinsic objective existence, it can only exist within the created order, and then only as a malformation, a brokenness, an injury.

There also seems to be a bit of the Euthyphro Dilemma. Chiefly in whether God is beholden to a good outside of God's Self (wherein there must be a power greater than God) or if good is merely the subjective whim of the Deity. A somewhat classical Christian response is that it's neither. Rather God is all sufficiently self contained, and is neither beholden to a power outside of God's Self nor capricious; what is good is good because it is innate to the Divine Essence, but what is good could never be otherwise than what it is. This is important because it means God could never say murder was good, it would be seen as impossible--but what constrains God from saying that murder is good isn't an external power, but God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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aiki

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It says in Genesis that man became like God in the sense we both know good and evil. My question is how did God determine what is "good" and what is "evil." The question I guess would be if God didn't create evil, then what is the origin of evil?

What is morally good is defined by God's own morally-perfect nature. What is morally evil is anything devoid of moral goodness. Where does evil come from, then? It "comes from" the absence of good.

Some say Satan is responsible, but did he actually create evil, or did he just embrace something that already existed?

Neither option, I think. Satan did not embrace evil so much as he rejected good. Evil is just the inevitable consequence of turning away from goodness.

I guess the real question would be how was the character of God determined and what factors were involved.

As soon as you start talking about God being determined in some way, you are no longer talking about the biblical conception of God. Nothing determined anything about God; He has always been as He is. If God is any way shaped by something outside of Himself, then He is not truly perfect and non-contingent and His aseity is a lie.

Selah.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Morals are derived from social groups. There is no reason to believe otherwise, and all available evidence suggests this so.
Here in Columbus, Ohio we have a "social group" known as the Short North Posse. Several of them are on trial for murder, rape, narcotics, etc. So please go ahead and talk about how morals are derived from "social groups"........
 
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HitchSlap

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Here in Columbus, Ohio we have a "social group" known as the Short North Posse. Several of them are on trial for murder, rape, narcotics, etc. So please go ahead and talk about how morals are derived from "social groups"........
Did you say they're on trial...? ;)
 
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civilwarbuff

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So it sounds like our social group considers murder to be immoral. It's why we have laws.
Isn't the Short North Posse a social group?.....regardless of how they act?....or what they do? Don't people that are part of that social group determine their own morals?....cuz they sure have acted on those morals.....
 
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HitchSlap

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Isn't the Short North Posse a social group?
No.

.....regardless of how they act?....or what they do? Don't people that are part of that social group determine their own morals?....cuz they sure have acted on those morals.....
By "social groups," I mean the kind sociologists use to describe man as they moved from hunter gatherers to living together in groups. This requires cooperation among it's members. This evolved cooperation are how morals are derived.
 
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civilwarbuff

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By "social groups," I mean the kind sociologists use to describe man as they moved from hunter gatherers to living together in groups. This requires cooperation among it's members. This evolved cooperation are how morals are derived.
And you just described the Short North Posse.... hunter gatherers to living together in groups......This requires cooperation among it's members......
 
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civilwarbuff

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Then why are they on trial for murder?
You brought up social groups setting moral standards...I just mentioned a social group with their own moral standards....maybe takes a little more than social groups, you think?
 
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HitchSlap

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You brought up social groups setting moral standards...I just mentioned a social group with their own moral standards....maybe takes a little more than social groups, you think?
If you're ignorant on the evolution of social groups and social morality, then do something about it.
 
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aiki

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Morals are derived from social groups. There is no reason to believe otherwise, and all available evidence suggests this so.

Ah, so much like an atheist to come on a Christian forum and so boldly declare such a thing. Of course, as quite a number of Christian philosophers have explained, all the available evidence does not point in the direction in which you say it does. Read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." He gives an excellent and very accessible argument for why Christians don't subscribe to your view.

Selah.
 
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HitchSlap

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Ah, so much like an atheist to come on a Christian forum and so boldly declare such a thing. Of course, as quite a number of Christian philosophers have explained, all the available evidence does not point in the direction in which you say it does. Read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." He gives an excellent and very accessible argument for why Christians don't subscribe to your view.

Selah.
I've read "Mere Christianity" several times in my younger years. Lewis was wrong.
Morals are developed over time within social groups as humans evolved. This is not even debatable.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I've read "Mere Christianity" several times in my younger years. Lewis was wrong.
Morals are developed over time within social groups as humans evolved. This is not even debatable.
Then why is it still being debated by Philosophers still today?
 
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