Organic Chem

[metherion]

So, as some of you may know, I have started graduate school

Today was day three.

I am a chemistry master's student at SFA university in TX.

However, since I came to being a chem grad student from being a chemical engineering undergrad, I'm woefully short in some areas. Including organic chemistry.

I'm currently having to take an undergrad course in it and get a B to keep being a grad student. Yuck.


So I'm making this thread. In this thread, if I don't get something, I will ask it, and hope you guys can help me. Hehe. Hopefully lurkers can learn something. I don't have any questions yet, it's a TR class at 9:30-10:45, and for right now, people who do know enough about organic chem to be able to help me, would you please just post and say, "Hey, I'd be willing to do so." ?

I also reserve the right to necro this thread at any point until organic chem II is over at the end of the spring semester in May-ish

Metherion

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

You would probably consider my help to be a hindrance.

My specific area of interest in so-called "organic" chemistry is hydrocarbon chemistry.

Hydrocarbons are mislabeled "organic" even though they are in fact inorganic because John D. Rockefeller bribed some scientists in Switzerland in the early 20th century.

YouTube - Col Fletcher Prouty Explains how oil came to be classified a "fossil fuel"

Organic is a funny word. Ask them to define it very specifically.

And if they say something absurd like all carbon is organic have a good laugh because in fact vitalism was refuted in 1828 by Friedrich Wöhler and graphite and diamond are inorganic.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You would probably consider my help to be a hindrance.

That would be the understatement of the century. Organic chemicals contain carbon, and form the basis of biochemistry. Of all the molecules considered organic, hydrocarbons are the quintessential example. The distinction is blurry, but so what? It doesn't have to be perfect to be valid.

metherion, I wish you the best of luck! Not sure I'll be much help, but good luck anyway

 

[metherion]

Thanks, Wiccan

The book I'm using is Organic Chemistry, 7th ed, L.G. Wade.

So far, we're doing everything up to page 32, which is...
Lewis structures, resonance forms, empirical formulae, condensed structure formulae, Lewis/Bronsted/Arrhenious acids/bases.

Bleh hehe.

Hey, maybe if people are CURIOUS about stuff, I can try to explain it, and I'll see if I understand it well enough to do so.

And hey, if Agonances can do a half-decent job explaining Gringard reagants when the time comes, I won't care if he thinks hydrocarbons are only in organic chem due to a bribe. *shrug*

Metherion

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Hydrocarbons are organic because they contain carbon.

Therefore, according to you, graphite and diamond are organic because they contain carbon.

In fact, graphite and diamond are inorganic because they are abiotic.

Of all the molecules considered organic, hydrocarbons are the quintessential example.

Hydrocarbons are mislabeled organic because they contain carbon. In fact, hydrocarbons are inorganic because they are abiotic chemical compounds and not of biological origin.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Therefore according to you graphite and diamond are organic because they contain carbon.

Learn the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions. Being made of carbon is not enough to be considered an organic chemical, but all chemicals which are organic are made of carbon. Dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs. Organic chemicals are carbon-based molecules, but not all carbon-based molecules are organic. It's not a hard concept.

Hydrocarbons are mislabeled organic because they contain carbon. In fact, hydrocarbons are inorganic because they are abiotic chemical compounds and not living organisms.

Organic chemicals are not chemicals that are themselves alive. Organic chemicals are chemicals that form the basis of biology, and are hence carbon-based.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Being made of carbon is not enough to be considered an organic chemical

This contradicts your earlier statement that and I quote, "Hydrocarbons are organic because they contain carbon."

Hydrocarbons are organic because they contain carbon.

 

[metherion]

And both of you take your semantic argument outside of my thread, because it doesn't have to do with the topic of helping me with anything, or asking me for information.

Furthermore, all organic molecules contain carbon, but not all carbon containing molecules are organic. Hydrocarbons are included in today's definitions of organic compounds. If you want to bicker about why, start a new thread.

Further pursuit of this topic will make me ask for the posts to be removed from the thread, so when I DO use it for its intended purpose, I won't get lost.

Thank you.

Metherion

 

[rockaction]

Organic chem was my favorite course in undergrad. I subsequently tutored it for several years. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to help.

General advice:

-Stereochemistry rules a lot of what happens in Organic I. Learn chirality very well the first time around, because it's one of the trickier concepts.

-Repetition is the key, but not blind repetition. Work a lot of problems, but use logic to figure out the answers, not memorization. Memorization can cripple you on exams if you are faced with a weird twist on a concept.

-Having a background in physical chemistry is clutch. Me and my friends definitely didn't, so that made us have to work on that aspect more. Since you're a Chem E guy, you'll have no problem with that. It might be more dumbed-down than you're used to.

-Mechanisms, mechanisms, mechanisms. If you know the rules of mechanisms, it becomes a hell of a lot easier. Professors LOVE to take off points for imperfect mechanisms, so know them cold. They help in every aspect of reactions.

-Always approach it from an analytical perspective. Always ask why when something happens. Textbooks usually tell you when no one knows a mechanism for a reaction, so just put those ones down to memory. For the rest, figure out the patterns and the reasons why things happen.

OChem is an art. It's a very visual subject, and rewards those who treat it logically. Treat it like puzzles. Practice on whiteboards. There will be tons of irritating pre-meds, but the satisfaction in defeating them is like none-other.

 

[Gishin]

This contradicts your earlier statement that and I quote, "Hydrocarbons are organic because they contain carbon."

No it doesn't.

 

[Sphinx777]

Organic chemistry is a subdiscipline within chemistry involving the scientific study of the structure, properties, composition, reactions, and preparation (by synthesis or by other means) of carbon-based compounds, hydrocarbons, and their derivatives. These compounds may contain any number of other elements, including hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, the halogens as well as phosphorus, silicon and sulfur.

Organic compounds are structurally diverse. The range of application of organic compounds is enormous. They form the basis of, or are important constituents of many products (plastics, drugs, petrochemicals, food, explosives, paints, to name but a few) and, with very few exceptions, they form the basis of all earthly life processes.

Organic chemistry evolved in waves of innovation. These innovations were motivated by practical considerations as well as theoretical innovations. However, like all areas of science, chemistry is underpinned financially by the very large applications in biochemistry, polymer science, pharmaceutical chemistry, and agrochemicals.

 

[metherion]

Okay.

I know it's kind of late, but even with the textbook, something is confusing me.

Lewis acids and bases.

I get the Arrhenius ones.

I get the Bronstead-Lowry ones.

But... Lewis ones confuse me.

So if it gives electrons, it's an base, and if it takes them it's an acid?

So... like, for the arrow pushing, it STARTS at the Lewis base and ends at the Lewis acid... or...?

I dunno, I'm confused. Swapping from H3O+ and protons to electrons has me all kinds of confused.

Metherion

 

[rockaction]

Okay.

I know it's kind of late, but even with the textbook, something is confusing me.

Lewis acids and bases.

I get the Arrhenius ones.

I get the Bronstead-Lowry ones.

But... Lewis ones confuse me.

So if it gives electrons, it's an base, and if it takes them it's an acid?

So... like, for the arrow pushing, it STARTS at the Lewis base and ends at the Lewis acid... or...?

I dunno, I'm confused. Swapping from H3O+ and protons to electrons has me all kinds of confused.

Metherion

In Organic, the Lewis definition is the one you'll use the most. Take a hydroxide ion (-OH). You already know it's a base. But to explain it in Lewis terms: the oxygen has 3 lone pairs, and that gives the oxygen a net charge of -1. The extra pair of electrons can be used to form a bond with an H+ ion, which has no electrons. The H+ is the acid because it accepts the electrons from the -OH.

You will do this a lot in Organic II, and probably in Organic I. Acid/base reactions always happen before the trademark organic reactions.

Take some time to get used to the number of bonds and lone pairs oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon should have. Oxygen is neutral with 2 lone pairs and 2 bonds (be it 1 double bond or two single bonds). Nitrogen is neutral with 1 lone pair and 3 bonds. Carbon is neutral with 4 bonds.

Also, get used to how these atoms get +1 and -1 charges. Nitrogen commonly picks up a proton with its lone pair (Lewis Base!!) to become NH4+ (ammonium). Oxygen can often take a positive charge as well, so if you have 1 lone pair and 3 bonds with oxygen it's +1.

It will be second-nature pretty soon how the atoms "should" look when you draw structures. For example, you'll shrink back in horror if you see a carbon with 5 bonds, because that never happens.

This is VERY important for when you start drawing resonance structures, which will probably be pretty soon.

Good luck!

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Organic chem was my favorite course in undergrad. I subsequently tutored it for several years. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to help.

General advice:

-Stereochemistry rules a lot of what happens in Organic I. Learn chirality very well the first time around, because it's one of the trickier concepts.

-Repetition is the key, but not blind repetition. Work a lot of problems, but use logic to figure out the answers, not memorization. Memorization can cripple you on exams if you are faced with a weird twist on a concept.

-Having a background in physical chemistry is clutch. Me and my friends definitely didn't, so that made us have to work on that aspect more. Since you're a Chem E guy, you'll have no problem with that. It might be more dumbed-down than you're used to.

-Mechanisms, mechanisms, mechanisms. If you know the rules of mechanisms, it becomes a hell of a lot easier. Professors LOVE to take off points for imperfect mechanisms, so know them cold. They help in every aspect of reactions.

-Always approach it from an analytical perspective. Always ask why when something happens. Textbooks usually tell you when no one knows a mechanism for a reaction, so just put those ones down to memory. For the rest, figure out the patterns and the reasons why things happen.

OChem is an art. It's a very visual subject, and rewards those who treat it logically. Treat it like puzzles. Practice on whiteboards. There will be tons of irritating pre-meds, but the satisfaction in defeating them is like none-other.

Organic chemistry is a very easy subject. I have learned it many times.

 

[rockaction]

Organic chemistry is a very easy subject. I have learned it many times.

Well in most colleges, it's a weed-out class for pre-meds. My experience was that my professor made it needlessly hard. The subject, at its essence, makes sense and is pretty easy conceptually once you get the hang of it.

 

[Bushido216]

I truly despise Chemistry but, bravo, it's something I wish I understood better.

 

[alexacker]

Taking chemistry in school, i might be able to help

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Well in most colleges, it's a weed-out class for pre-meds. My experience was that my professor made it needlessly hard. The subject, at its essence, makes sense and is pretty easy conceptually once you get the hang of it.

As I said it is easy. I have had to learn it many times because I have also found it very easy to forget all those reactions.

 

[Flashlight]

I will help if I can. Organic was tough. Organometallic is where the fun is.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

No it doesn't.

I see so the laws of nature just change according to each circumstance.

Do I have this right yet: Hydrocarbons are organic because they contain carbon, however graphite and diamond are inorganic because they contain carbon?

How about synthetic carbon? Is synthetic carbon organic?