Ordering creation for good? Serving others for goodness' sake.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

 

[honey badger]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

what makes you think its broken ?

 

[trophy33]

There are several leaders today who are followed by millions or tens of millions, even hundreds of millions or at least influence many people in some way, either positive or negative.

And basically every leader can be seen positively and as being great from one point of view or as being evil or terrible from another point of view.

However, what is supposed to be wrong with the world in which the progress and healing is based upon general cooperation of developed nations and on dialog, instead of on one specific strong leader?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

what makes you think its broken ?

There are several leaders today who are followed by millions or tens of millions, even hundreds of millions or at least influence many people in some way, either positive or negative.

And basically every leader can be seen positively and as being great from one point of view or as being evil or terrible from another point of view.

However, what is supposed to be wrong with the world in which the progress and healing is based upon general cooperation of developed nations and on dialog, instead of on one specific strong leader?

Do neither of you believe these words?

Yahweh God called to the man and said to him,​

“Where are you?”​

And he said,​

“I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”​

And He said,​

"Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”​

And the man said,​

“The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave to me from the tree, and I ate.”​

Then Yahweh God said to the woman,​

“What is this you have done?”​

And the woman said,​

“The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”​

And Yahweh God said to the serpent,​

“Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than any of the cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”​

To the woman He said,​

“I will greatly multiply Your pain and conception, In pain you will bear children; Your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”​

Then to Adam He said,​

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In pain you will eat of it All the days of your life. “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”​

Genesis 3:9-19 LSB

 

[trophy33]

Do neither of you believe these words?

Yahweh God called to the man and said to him,​

“Where are you?”​

And he said,​

“I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”​

And He said,​

"Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”​

And the man said,​

“The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave to me from the tree, and I ate.”​

Then Yahweh God said to the woman,​

“What is this you have done?”​

And the woman said,​

“The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”​

And Yahweh God said to the serpent,​

“Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than any of the cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.”​

To the woman He said,​

“I will greatly multiply Your pain and conception, In pain you will bear children; Your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”​

Then to Adam He said,​

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In pain you will eat of it All the days of your life. “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”​

Genesis 3:9-19 LSB

Not literally, no. What is the supposed connection to my post, though? How would a new Caesar be better than the cooperation of democratic equals with various checks and balances so that nobody gets too crazy?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not literally, no. What is the supposed connection to my post, though? How would a new Caesar be better than the cooperation of democratic equals with various checks and balances so that nobody gets too crazy?

Is the world broken? Is sin a universal or near universal illness of humanity?

 

[trophy33]

Is the world broken? Is sin a universal or near universal illness of humanity?

Yep. And that is why we should aim for democratic checks and balances and not concentrate power in the hands of one broken and sinful person.

So, what are you even complaining about in your OP?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yep. And that is why we should aim for democratic checks and balances and not concentrate power in the hands of one broken and sinful person.

So, what are you even complaining about in your OP?

Is democracy and checks & balances the answer to the issue in the OP? I do not see how it could be.

But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world? is not a complaint.

 

[trophy33]

Is democracy and checks & balances the answer to the issue in the OP? I do not see how it could be.

But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world? is not a complaint.

What is the point of your OP and of this thread, then? What do you want to communicate?

 

[honey badger]

Is democracy and checks & balances the answer to the issue in the OP? I do not see how it could be.

But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world? is not a complaint.

it only appears to be broken if you think it should be something other than what it is ...

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

it only appears to be broken if you think it should be something other than what it is ...

Do you think God thinks the world needs remedial work?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is the point of your OP and of this thread, then? What do you want to communicate?

I communicated what I wanted to in the OP, it can be unpacked and expanded by those who what to engage constructively.

 

[trophy33]

I communicated what I wanted to in the OP, it can be unpacked and expanded by those who what to engage constructively.

You are very cooperative.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

You are very cooperative.

The great men I mentioned are accounted as very great. yet their works have not healed this world, bandaged the abrasions, protected the breaks. Yet the deeds of some little unimportant people have bandaged the abrasions. A few have bound the wounds, put a splint on the breaks. And the great ones I mentioned would willingly bow down in reverence towards them. Jesus was assuredly one of the unimportant ones in his time, others also come to mind.

 

[honey badger]

Do you think God thinks the world need remedial work?

this is asking ... should God enter back into His labor and implying He should correct it ... so no

 

[Rose_bud]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

The source of all good to humanity is always God. He has done a finished work. We have yet to experience that finished work as a lived reality in some areas. We are called upon by and through the same source to make His redemption message known.

Jesus did the greatest work, but He also said greater works than this you will do (John 14:12). Not that we will outdo the greatest work, but rather that we will partake in it.

 

[Clare73]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But
who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

Only the sovereign Holy Spirit. . .who has not promised to change and heal this broken world, but to cleanse it with fire (Mt 19:28, Ac 3:21, 2 Pe 3:12-13).

 

[Bob Crowley]

It is a mystery as to what mechanism God and the devil use to develop "great men". On the one side there can be a Mahatma Gandhi, the apostle of non-violence who was assassinated by a Hindu nationalist. And there can be an Adolf Hitler, who at one stage was a vagabond artist making a living selling postcards in Vienna. In his early years he was the last person one would expect to become the Nazi overlord.

Churchill might have saved us in World War II. My father was a strong unionist who saw service in the Australian army. He and Churchill were light years from each other in class terms. Churchill was an out and out racist in some respects.

Racial views of Winston Churchill - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Churchill advocated against native self-rule in Africa, America, Australia and India, believing that the British Empire promoted and maintained the welfare of those who lived in the colonies; he insisted that "our responsibility to the native races remains a real one".[8][9]

Yet despite these monumental differences in class and outlook I remember my father saying we'd have lost the war without him. There wasn't much interest in fighting the Germans in Australia, following a huge death toll in World War I, and the later depression years. But it was Churchill who motivated the "Commonwealth" to keep fighting when they did not want to.

At first glance one would not expect Jesus Christ to fulfil the role of a Messiah. Born to a teenage mother out of wedlock with an older carpenter for a later husband, in an animal shelter in a location not noted for anything great, and living under foreign occupation, He would hardly have been the person the local media would have chosen had there been mass communcations at the time.

Who knows how God and the devil work?

 

[ARBITER01]

Great men, such as David and Solomon, great kings and national heroes such as Augustus Caesar, men of great moral weight such a Nelson Mandela, these all inspire many stories and even more people. Gandhi moved hundreds of millions. The saints inspire billions. But who moves humanity to change and heals this broken world?

Things will not get better. Sin has to be eradicated by GOD.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Things will not get better. Sin has to be eradicated by GOD.

Took a while for you to find this thread

I get where you’re coming from—sin’s a real mess, no doubt. But I wouldn’t say things can’t get better. As a Catholic, I believe God’s grace is already at work in the world, not just waiting for the end times to clean house. Christ didn’t just die to save souls later—He rose to redeem creation now. We’re called to cooperate with that grace, to be part of the healing. So yeah, sin’s serious, but hope’s not on hold till judgement day.