• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

Oral Torah?

Umbreon0

Newbie
Aug 3, 2013
9
0
✟22,619.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I've been reading up a bit on Judaism, and I'm slightly confused on what I as a Christian should think of the Oral Torah. It comprises the Mishna, the first half of the Talmud, and was supposedly given orally to Moses on Mt. Sinai and passed down orally until being written down after the destruction of the second Temple, whereas the Torah (Pentateuch) was given to him to be written down, which is what we use. (The other half is just commentary of the Hebrew Bible to those who don't know, and is obviously and easily uninspired, nor does it claim to be, unlike the Oral Torah)

So my question is, should we trust, read, and study the Oral Torah? And if so, should it be held to the same importance as the rest of the Bible? Why or why not?
 
Last edited:

childofdust

Newbie
May 18, 2010
1,041
94
✟2,237.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Private
Hi, Umbreon0.

passed down orally until being written down after the destruction of the third Temple (iirc)

You mean the Second Temple. :thumbsup:

I say, yes, definitely, certainly, absolutely: study Oral Law. For several reasons.

1. Because it contains a lot of early Jewish traditions that were kept by the church.

2. Because by understanding those traditions, you can better understand things in the New Testament.

3. It gives you ancient interpretations of scripture.

4. Tells us a lot more about the ancient culture and times than we can find in something like the bible.

5. All of this opens up new avenues of thought and investigation that, hopefully, help us as gentiles to better understand the ancient world and those who are Jewish.

6. it's fun!

If you want to understand Paul, for instance, you HAVE to read the Oral Law. A lot of what Paul thinks and says is based on or has links to Oral Law. As a “pharisee of pharisees,” that shouldn't surprise us. Even things Yeshua said and did were based on Oral Law.

One of the potential problems with the Oral Law, however, is that a lot of what it says is also very late. You have early traditions and ideas side-by-side with late ideas and traditions. Regardless of whether later traditions are right or wrong, they may not represent what people actually thought or did in the time of Yeshua or before. They may be later developments.

The way Christians should think about the Oral Law is, I think, the same way they should think about the Old Testament. The Old Testament is not monolithic. What I mean by that is: the Old Testament was not written so that all its parts agree with each other and simply lay out a map or answer book for us. The Old Testament is a DIALOGUE. It is a record of the STRUGGLE of Israelite religious thought and action over time. It contains many voices, which have different ideas and interpretations of things.

For example, in the book of Ezra-Nehemiah, we learn that when Jews first returned to Jerusalem in order to rebuild and restart their lives, there was a important issue about holiness and religious identity. What should the Israelites who married gentiles—and, thus, could pollute their ways with the worship of other gods—do with their spouses? Should their gentile spouses be considered part of Israel? Or should they divorce those people and send them away so that they can follow YHWH without compromise? Well, the answer Ezra-Nehemiah gives us is that the Law sanctions divorce so that the people can remain holy and follow only YHWH. But that's not the only answer to the question. You also have Malachi, which was written during that same time. And Malachi thinks God hates divorce and that no one should divorce their spouse even if they are not part of the believing community—even if that spouse worships someone other than YHWH. So the Old Testament gives us two different answers to the same problem. Which one is correct? The Old Testament doesn't tell us. This MULTIPLICITY invites the people of God to enter into the conversation and enter into the experience of trying to figure out, in real life, what it means to be the people of God. The Oral Law is exactly the same. It is part of that conversation. It is part of that experience. Just like the Old Testament, it does not give us an answer—it gives us many answers, some of which may be right or may not be right.

The thing that makes us as Christians different, however, is that we have Yeshua. Yeshua is the fundamental governing experience of our lives. Neither the Old Testament nor the Oral Law has that same fundamental governing experience. So we're never going to approach the Old Testament or the Oral Law exactly the same way as those who don't know Yeshua. We have a good idea about what Yeshua thought about divorce. Yeshua agreed with Malachi and disagreed with Ezra-Nehemiah. So suddenly we have our answer to the problem. Not from the Old Testament. Not from the Oral Law—from Yeshua.
 
Upvote 0

Steve Petersen

Senior Veteran
May 11, 2005
16,077
3,393
✟177,942.00
Faith
Deist
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hi, Umbreon0.



You mean the Second Temple. :thumbsup:

I say, yes, definitely, certainly, absolutely: study Oral Law. For several reasons.

1. Because it contains a lot of early Jewish traditions that were kept by the church.

2. Because by understanding those traditions, you can better understand things in the New Testament.

3. It gives you ancient interpretations of scripture.

4. Tells us a lot more about the ancient culture and times than we can find in something like the bible.

5. All of this opens up new avenues of thought and investigation that, hopefully, help us as gentiles to better understand the ancient world and those who are Jewish.

6. it's fun!

If you want to understand Paul, for instance, you HAVE to read the Oral Law. A lot of what Paul thinks and says is based on or has links to Oral Law. As a “pharisee of pharisees,” that shouldn't surprise us. Even things Yeshua said and did were based on Oral Law.

One of the potential problems with the Oral Law, however, is that a lot of what it says is also very late. You have early traditions and ideas side-by-side with late ideas and traditions. Regardless of whether later traditions are right or wrong, they may not represent what people actually thought or did in the time of Yeshua or before. They may be later developments.

The way Christians should think about the Oral Law is, I think, the same way they should think about the Old Testament. The Old Testament is not monolithic. What I mean by that is: the Old Testament was not written so that all its parts agree with each other and simply lay out a map or answer book for us. The Old Testament is a DIALOGUE. It is a record of the STRUGGLE of Israelite religious thought and action over time. It contains many voices, which have different ideas and interpretations of things.

For example, in the book of Ezra-Nehemiah, we learn that when Jews first returned to Jerusalem in order to rebuild and restart their lives, there was a important issue about holiness and religious identity. What should the Israelites who married gentiles—and, thus, could pollute their ways with the worship of other gods—do with their spouses? Should their gentile spouses be considered part of Israel? Or should they divorce those people and send them away so that they can follow YHWH without compromise? Well, the answer Ezra-Nehemiah gives us is that the Law sanctions divorce so that the people can remain holy and follow only YHWH. But that's not the only answer to the question. You also have Malachi, which was written during that same time. And Malachi thinks God hates divorce and that no one should divorce their spouse even if they are not part of the believing community—even if that spouse worships someone other than YHWH. So the Old Testament gives us two different answers to the same problem. Which one is correct? The Old Testament doesn't tell us. This MULTIPLICITY invites the people of God to enter into the conversation and enter into the experience of trying to figure out, in real life, what it means to be the people of God. The Oral Law is exactly the same. It is part of that conversation. It is part of that experience. Just like the Old Testament, it does not give us an answer—it gives us many answers, some of which may be right or may not be right.

The thing that makes us as Christians different, however, is that we have Yeshua. Yeshua is the fundamental governing experience of our lives. Neither the Old Testament nor the Oral Law has that same fundamental governing experience. So we're never going to approach the Old Testament or the Oral Law exactly the same way as those who don't know Yeshua. We have a good idea about what Yeshua thought about divorce. Yeshua agreed with Malachi and disagreed with Ezra-Nehemiah. So suddenly we have our answer to the problem. Not from the Old Testament. Not from the Oral Law—from Yeshua.

This! :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I've been reading up a bit on Judaism, and I'm slightly confused on what I as a Christian should think of the Oral Torah. It comprises the Mishna, the first half of the Talmud, and was supposedly given orally to Moses on Mt. Sinai and passed down orally until being written down after the destruction of the second Temple, whereas the Torah (Pentateuch) was given to him to be written down, which is what we use. (The other half is just commentary of the Hebrew Bible to those who don't know, and is obviously and easily uninspired, nor does it claim to be, unlike the Oral Torah)

So my question is, should we trust, read, and study the Oral Torah? And if so, should it be held to the same importance as the rest of the Bible? Why or why not?

Have you read any of Jacob Neusner?
 
Upvote 0

Steve Petersen

Senior Veteran
May 11, 2005
16,077
3,393
✟177,942.00
Faith
Deist
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes, second temple. I was writing it all on memory, and that's failed me too many times to count lol thanks for correcting me :)

Thanks for the response as well, now for the hard part; finding an English translation for cheap....

Danby's translation of the Mishnah is probably reasonably priced. You might find it at Christian Book Distributors or any on line book store.
 
Upvote 0