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Opinion on a creation v evolution summary

florida2

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OK, I've said my piece - off now to watch a whole load more creation videos (just found the excellent site by Mike Riddle, who is a great speaker and has produced some wonderful DVDs on the creation/evolution debate, including "4 Power Questions to ask an Evolutionist," highly recommended).

Whilst I applaud your enthusiasm, your energy would be better spent trying to get a fuller, more rounded view of evolution. Have a look at some of the evidence for evolution. Watch some videos explaining the evidence or read some articles.

If you just stick to creationist videos and websites you're burying your head further in the sand. I know, I was in just the same position about 10 years ago not long after I became a Christian. I completely understand the desire you feel to show evolution is wrong whilst somehow wondering if you're actually wrong and whether the world's scientists might actually be right.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Before you make your case, I'd like to point something out. There are numerous people who either study evolution or use it as a tool in their professional lives. Virtually anyone in biology sees evolution not just as a theoretical model, but a model of practical application. We've used knowledge gleaned from it to discover new fossils, to help treat HIV, to help further genetic modification and breeding practices in agriculture, even to write better computer programs. There is a massive interdisciplinary consensus among trained scientists. There are more biologists with the name "Steve" who believe in evolution than biologists who doubt it. That should say something.

So before you continue your screed, think about this for the moment. Is it fair to assume that you have not had any formal training in evolutionary biology? That you aren't exactly a PhD biologist, paleontologist, virologist, geneticist, archaeologist, anthropologist, or member of any other field that may have relevant expertise? Because among those who do have relevant expertise, the answer is almost universal - "Evolution is the only viable explanation for the diversity of life on this planet". You can find more historians who deny the holocaust than biologists who deny evolution.

So I dunno. Which one is more viable? Others have gone over the myriad errors in your OP (many of which can be addressed simply by linking to talkorigin's "Index of Creationist Claims" - the Chirality one is there, for example), but I think this is the real sticking point. You, a layperson, have examined the evidence and come to a conclusion which is diametrically opposed to an interdisciplinary, nigh-global consensus of millions of trained scientists. Ask yourself for a moment - what's more likely, that they're all wrong or in on some conspiracy, or that you just don't have your facts straight? I think the former is really, really arrogant, personally.

I strongly recommend you watch this two-video series by C0nc0rdance. It's his response to a challenge by a creationist to prove that evolution is true. C0nc0rdance is a biological chemist who has worked extensively on trying to find ways to treat HIV, and the theory of evolution has been a fundamental tool his group used to do so. If you can't or don't want to watch both videos, that's fine - it's 20 minutes, and I probably wouldn't listen to, say, Ben Stein ramble on for 20 minutes. But please at least watch the last few minutes of the second video, starting from this timestamp, at least from like 8:48 until about 10:00. He really lays out the point I'm trying to make in a perfectly elegant way.

I'm not a scientist, that's true, but I like to think I am able to "see the wood for the trees" in some of the arguments that are put forward. I've had a look at some of the videos above and I can't see what the relevance these type of small-scale changes have to the idea that one kind or creature can change into a completely different kind. You can't have something that is half bird and half reptile because the vital life support systems (e.g., the way they breathe) are completely different. Creation scientists don't deny change and natural selection, it's part of their model, so this is not a proof of evolution. What they do deny is the kind of change I have just quoted. Neither does the fossil record support this idea as there are no undisputed intermediate forms as far as I am aware (if I'm wrong, somebody please list some and please, not Archaeopteryx, which is merely just an ancient bird). For a summary of what creationists have to say about changes in microbes, have a look at this page http://creation.com/search?q=virus+changes, you may be surprised.
 
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RickG

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I'm not a scientist, that's true, but I like to think I am able to "see the wood for the trees" in some of the arguments that are put forward. I've had a look at some of the videos above and I can't see what the relevance these type of small-scale changes have to the idea that one kind or creature can change into a completely different kind. You can't have something that is half bird and half reptile because the vital life support systems (e.g., the way they breathe) are completely different. Creation scientists don't deny change and natural selection, it's part of their model, so this is not a proof of evolution. What they do deny is the kind of change I have just quoted. Neither does the fossil record support this idea as there are no undisputed intermediate forms as far as I am aware (if I'm wrong, somebody please list some and please, not Archaeopteryx, which is merely just an ancient bird). For a summary of what creationists have to say about changes in microbes, have a look at this page http://creation.com/search?q=virus+changes, you may be surprised.
An important thing to understand is that "populations" evolve, not individuals. Also, intermediate forms or transitional fossils are not needed to observe evolution. If evolution were false we would find all life forms that ever existed co-mingled in all layers of sedimentary strata. The fact is we do not, rather, they are distributed throughout sedimentary strata in precisely the manner that evolution would have to be in order for it to be true.
 
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Loudmouth

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I'm not a scientist, that's true, but I like to think I am able to "see the wood for the trees" in some of the arguments that are put forward. I've had a look at some of the videos above and I can't see what the relevance these type of small-scale changes have to the idea that one kind or creature can change into a completely different kind.

Evolution doesn't need to produce creatures that are completely different. However many differences chimps and humans have, we are still the same primate kind. No matter how many differences humans and bears have, we are still the same mammal kind. Trout and human have many differences, but we are still the same vertebrate kind.

The tree analogy that Darwin used still applies. Each lineage starts out as a tiny bud. Over time, it can grow larger and produce new branches. However, at no time does that new branch disconnect from the tree, move down to the trunk, and start a new branch. Species always stay on the branch where their lineage started. They never become completely different kinds.

You can't have something that is half bird and half reptile because the vital life support systems (e.g., the way they breathe) are completely different.

Since when? You seem to make a lot of bold and empty assertions with no intent to back them up.

Creation scientists don't deny change and natural selection, it's part of their model, so this is not a proof of evolution. What they do deny is the kind of change I have just quoted. Neither does the fossil record support this idea as there are no undisputed intermediate forms as far as I am aware (if I'm wrong, somebody please list some and please, not Archaeopteryx, which is merely just an ancient bird). For a summary of what creationists have to say about changes in microbes, have a look at this page http://creation.com/search?q=virus+changes, you may be surprised.

There are many undisputed transitionals. Here are a few:

toskulls2.jpg
 
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Not_By_Chance

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You're welcome! : )

You are saying that the entire worldwide scientific community, including millions of scientists who are Christian, Hindu, Jewish, European, American, Chinese, with many different political and religious views, many being inventors and Nobel prize winners, and having access to libraries full of data, have been collectively hoodwinked, while you, young and sitting at home, have figured out the truth? Stating that view is only going to make you look delusional.

The peppered moths have been replicated many times. Your creationists liars didn't tell you that. Instead, they only told you about the flaws in the original experiment, and lied that the peppered moths aren't an example of selection. I know how angering it is to be lied to. You are too smart to keep buying their lies.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html



The survey data clearly show that creationism is destroying Christianity. Everyone, and especially young people, are fleeing the church, and when asked why, Barna research showed that many of them specifically say it was due to creationism. Here is a discussion of those data.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-this-past-hour.7879732/page-49#post-67996310



Genesis has long been recognized as poetic. If you consider a non-literal interpretation of Genesis as "saying that some parts can't be trusted", then you must reject the idea that germs cause disease, since the Bibles describe diseases as caused by demons. It's been clear for over 300 years that a non-literal reading is both correct and helpful in many places in the Bibles, not just Genesis.

Again, to stick to a literal only reading is to relegate the Bibles to fantasy.

Most importantly, however - please take the time to investigate the bullet pointed items in my post. Otherwise further conversation here is not likely to be productive.

In Christ-

Papias

In Biblical times, evil spirits were able to cause physical and mental illness. There is no reason to expect that demons do not continue to cause these conditions today. Evil spirits are eternal beings, as are angels. Jesus Christ had perfect knowledge when he observed the activity of demons in the lives of people and was able to determine the cause of illness without mistake. We should be very cautious today when attempting to distinguish between spiritual and natural causes.

It is usually pretty obvious when the Bible is being literal, rather than poetic, etc. Hebrew scholars apparently are firmly of the opinion that Genesis is meant to be taken literally. Jesus, our final authority, never gave any indication that Genesis was meant to be taken just as a story, referring to man as being there since the beginning of creation, not millions or billions of years later. Then you have passages like this, "1Co 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 1Co 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven." And what about this verse?, "
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." Then we have Noah's flood - was that just a story as well? I don't believe that God would have given us the Bible in the form we have it if we had to go through it and pick and choose which parts to believe and which to relegate to allegory. Actually, going back to the flood again, Luke, who is regarded by many as one of the finest historians that ever lived, reported our Lord as saying this:-
"Luk 17:27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.
Luk 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife!
Luk 17:33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
Luk 17:36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left."

Now that section is actually one of those parts of the Bible that gives powerful testimony to the fact that the Bible is God- inspired. Notice that the second coming is predicted to occur when people are in bed and also out working in the field at the same time. This only makes sense with our modern day knowledge that the earth is spherical and therefore half is in darkness while the other half is in daylight. The one who wrote this would have known this at the time. There are other passages in the Bible that clearly demonstrate that it was inspired by God. He wrote it and had/has total knowledge of all things, so that settles it for me.
 
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lasthero

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This only makes sense with our modern day knowledge that the earth is spherical and therefore half is in darkness while the other half is in daylight.

The sphericity of the planet was actually known long before modern times. It wasn't a popular idea, but even ancient times there were people who figured it out through relatively simple means.

And, also, that passage doesn't say anything about the men working in the field. It just says they're in the field.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Evolution doesn't need to produce creatures that are completely different. However many differences chimps and humans have, we are still the same primate kind. No matter how many differences humans and bears have, we are still the same mammal kind. Trout and human have many differences, but we are still the same vertebrate kind.

The tree analogy that Darwin used still applies. Each lineage starts out as a tiny bud. Over time, it can grow larger and produce new branches. However, at no time does that new branch disconnect from the tree, move down to the trunk, and start a new branch. Species always stay on the branch where their lineage started. They never become completely different kinds.



Since when? You seem to make a lot of bold and empty assertions with no intent to back them up.



There are many undisputed transitionals. Here are a few:

toskulls2.jpg

Can you list these as names please, so I can look them up? Also, I think the creationists' "Orchard of Life" better fits what we see in the real world.

Regarding the changes from one type of creature into another, if I understand natural selection correctly, new features have to have some beneficial/survival value in order to be passed to succeeding generations. Now anyone who has (for example), looked at the complexity of a feather will appreciate that developing wings would not be of any use whatsoever until the whole structure had developed and so would not have any survival value at all and probably the reverse. And what about the very different breathing mechanisms - is it really credible to believe that the evolving creature would retain its original breathing apparatus, while all the time, developing a completely new system? Was all this taking place while the creature was also changing from cold to warm blooded? Maybe this makes a good fairy tale, but that's about all.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Yup! That would describe your source. It is what the scientific community refers to as "intellectual dishonesty". That is, presenting only the information that "appears" to support ones position, while ignoring all information that does not support that position. That my friend, is the reason I deplore "Creation Science".

And evolutionists don't do this? LOL
 
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RickG

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And evolutionists don't do this? LOL
All fields of both science and non science have experienced intellectual dishonesty, thus the reason for the peer review process. As for your reference to "evolutionists", that is a kind of nonsensical designation as all fields of physical contribute to the theory of evolution. I have no problem with understanding and accepting the theory of evolution, nor do I view myself as an evolutionist. If I believe medical science can keep me healthy, does that make me a medical doctor? Get the idea?
 
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Loudmouth

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Can you list these as names please, so I can look them up?

First, you do realize that it is the physical features that make fossils transitionals, not their names, correct?

The transitional fossils are Australopithecus afarensis, Homo habilis, and Homo erectus. Also, please don't conflate the terms "ancestral" and "transitional" as some other creationists do. Those are separate terms.

Also, I think the creationists' "Orchard of Life" better fits what we see in the real world.

You think? You are going to have to do better than that.

Regarding the changes from one type of creature into another, if I understand natural selection correctly, new features have to have some beneficial/survival value in order to be passed to succeeding generations. Now anyone who has (for example), looked at the complexity of a feather will appreciate that developing wings would not be of any use whatsoever until the whole structure had developed and so would not have any survival value at all and probably the reverse.

Penguins disagree. Feathers are wonderful insulators and would serve the same function as fur in mammals.

And what about the very different breathing mechanisms -

There is evidence for the same flow through lung system in non-avian dinosaurs.

"Here we report, on the basis of a comparative analysis of region-specific pneumaticity with extant birds, evidence for cervical and abdominal air-sac systems in non-avian theropods, along with thoracic skeletal prerequisites of an avian-style aspiration pump. The early acquisition of this system among theropods is demonstrated by examination of an exceptional new specimen of Majungatholus atopus, documenting these features in a taxon only distantly related to birds. Taken together, these specializations imply the existence of the basic avian pulmonary Bauplan in basal neotheropods, indicating that flow-through ventilation of the lung is not restricted to birds but is probably a general theropod characteristic."
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7048/abs/nature03716.html

Also, you never showed that the flow through system is completely different, nor did you show that intermediates would be non-viable.
 
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Papias

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Papias wrote
A You are saying that the entire worldwide scientific community, including millions of scientists who are Christian, Hindu, Jewish, European, American, Chinese, with many different political and religious views, many being inventors and Nobel prize winners, and having access to libraries full of data, have been collectively hoodwinked, while you, young and sitting at home, have figured out the truth? Stating that view is only going to make you look delusional.

B The peppered moths have been replicated many times. Your creationists liars didn't tell you that. Instead, they only told you about the flaws in the original experiment, and lied that the peppered moths aren't an example of selection. I know how angering it is to be lied to. You are too smart to keep buying their lies.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html



C The survey data clearly show that creationism is destroying Christianity. Everyone, and especially young people, are fleeing the church, and when asked why, Barna research showed that many of them specifically say it was due to creationism. Here is a discussion of those data.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-this-past-hour.7879732/page-49#post-67996310



D Genesis has long been recognized as poetic. If you consider a non-literal interpretation of Genesis as "saying that some parts can't be trusted", then you must reject the idea that germs cause disease, since the Bibles describe diseases as caused by demons. It's been clear for over 300 years that a non-literal reading is both correct and helpful in many places in the Bibles, not just Genesis.

Again, to stick to a literal only reading is to relegate the Bibles to fantasy.

E Most importantly, however - please take the time to investigate the bullet pointed items in my post. Otherwise further conversation here is not likely to be productive.

In Christ-

Papias




In Biblical times, evil spirits were able to cause physical and mental illness.

D So are you saying that germs didn't cause any disease back then?


It is usually pretty obvious when the Bible is being literal, rather than poetic, etc.

Is Ex 19 literal, or poetic?

Hebrew scholars apparently are firmly of the opinion that Genesis is meant to be taken literally.

Simply false. Hebrew scholars are clear that Genesis contains poetic language.


https://www.scienceandchristianbelief.org/serve_pdf_free.php?filename=SCB+12-2+Marston.pdf


"The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Which obviously indicates the symbolic nature of the verses there, since there was only one person literally named "Adam". The "last Adam" is a symbol for someone not literally named "Adam", right?


Then we have Noah's flood - was that just a story as well? I don't believe that God would have given us the Bible in the form we have it if we had to go through it and pick and choose which parts to believe and which to relegate to allegory.

You already see much of your Bible symbolically, as I've we've seen. Those verses are just as good and holy, so there is no "relegating" to allegory.

You also didn't address most of my points, A, B, C, E, etc.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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The Cadet

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The complexity of the living cell has only in recent years, been really appreciated. Let me ask you a question if I may - what do you estimate is the probability of the first living cell having arisen by chance?

This is a common misconception, so let me return your question with another question - what do you think the first living cell looked like? What components did it have?

I'm not a scientist, that's true, but I like to think I am able to "see the wood for the trees" in some of the arguments that are put forward. I've had a look at some of the videos above and I can't see what the relevance these type of small-scale changes have to the idea that one kind or creature can change into a completely different kind. You can't have something that is half bird and half reptile because the vital life support systems (e.g., the way they breathe) are completely different.

Would you say you can't have something that is half fish, half tetrapod? Because we actually found that one. Just like the half-bird, half-reptile...

(if I'm wrong, somebody please list some and please, not Archaeopteryx, which is merely just an ancient bird).

You're wrong. Really, really wrong.

First of all, the younger dinosaurs actually did breathe like birds. They had a bird-like breathing apparatus. This is a stark contrast to older dinosaurs, which did not.
Secondly, when you say Archaeopteryx is "merely an ancient bird", you're ignoring numerous important features which clearly mark it as not "merely" an ancient bird, but a transitional form between dinosaurs and birds. The field of paleontology is pretty clear on this one.
Thirdly, the problem of "could this have evolved this way" has been addressed at length both in the scientific literature and in the courtroom, and every time, regardless of how bizarre it seemed from the outset, the answer was "yes". Going from a reptilian breathing apparatus to an avian one? Try evolving the bacterial flagellum! It's really nothing more than an argument from ignorance - "I don't know how it could have evolved that way, therefore it couldn't have".

You keep on talking about shifting breathing apparatuses... Have you spent any time researching it? Because there appear to be some pretty decent answers. But you didn't look for those answers. You immediately jumped to "I don't know, therefore evolution is wrong". This is a weak argument even when we don't know exactly how something could have evolved (because, after all, just because we don't know how something could have evolved does not mean there is no possible explanation), but when talking about things where we have a pretty solid idea not only of how they could have evolved but actually how they did evolve, it just becomes depressing.

In Biblical times, evil spirits were able to cause physical and mental illness. There is no reason to expect that demons do not continue to cause these conditions today.

I think there might be a reason. Let me explain this to you with a simple example.

In the olden times, people thought the bubonic plague was caused by evil spirits. Then, we found out about this little fella, right here:

plague-bacteria-sc3519-xl.jpg


For some reason, along with the evil spirits, every time someone was sick with bubonic plague, this guy was found on the scene. Then we found this guy:

209px-Streptomycin3.svg.png


That's streptomycin. It killed off all the little wriggly thingies that came along with the demons. And oddly enough, when that happened, the demons left! What an odd coinkidink!

But okay, how do you drive out demons? Pray? Here, tell you what, next time there's a bubonic plague outbreak, we'll split the people who have it into two groups. One will pray the lord's prayer, and the other will take streptomycin. Both will, of course, receive ancillary treatment (without which you will usually die before the antibiotic takes effect). I have a sneaking suspicion that one group is going to do a whole lot better than the other. In fact, I think one group is going to die almost completely, while the other has a decent survival rate.

Do I sound patronizing? I hope so, because I sure feel ridiculous explaining this like this. The reason we abandoned the idea that evil spirits were causing diseases was because it was a worthless hypothesis. It offers us no way of understanding reality, and, you can see this beautifully in medicine in ways you cannot immediately see in evolutionary biology, gave us ways to make life better. We abandoned the "evil spirits cause disease" hypothesis because it was vapid, unscientific, and completely worthless.

I almost cannot believe that it is the 21st century and we have someone capable of operating a computer who believes that evil spirits cause disease.

Jesus Christ had perfect knowledge when he observed the activity of demons in the lives of people and was able to determine the cause of illness without mistake. We should be very cautious today when attempting to distinguish between spiritual and natural causes.

See, this is where you're going to get it wrong every time. Every single time. We shouldn't be cautious when attempting to distinguish spiritual and natural causes, we should disregard spiritual causes! There has not been one single case in recorded history where "spiritual causes" led us down the right road. Supernatural causation is a fool's game. Once you place the cause of an event outside of nature, you lose any and all means of examining that cause, and thus any and all means of making predictions about that cause.

If bubonic plague is called by evil spirits, how can we make predictions about it? What do we know about these evil spirits? How can we prevent them? Even if the bible said so, there would be no reason that the bible is necessarily a trustworthy source with regards to that topic. There is absolutely no way to make our lives better. We cannot use any knowledge gained. It is worthless.

But if bubonic plague is called by bacteria, then we can make very accurate predictions about how it spreads and how to treat it, and proceed to make life better.

This is the difference between saying "God Did It" and "X naturalistic explanation Did It". Do you know what the difference is between "God did it" and "I don't know"? Neither has any practical application whatsoever, but one has the added detriment of actively discouraging further examination. After all, we have our answer. God did it, and we can't do anything about it. Except that, in every case thus far, "God did it" has either been unproven or false. There's a massive pattern throughout history of "God did it" being wrong. So appealing to that in medicine, a field where scientific advances are saving lives on a daily basis, is just disgusting.

Regarding the changes from one type of creature into another, if I understand natural selection correctly, new features have to have some beneficial/survival value in order to be passed to succeeding generations. Now anyone who has (for example), looked at the complexity of a feather will appreciate that developing wings would not be of any use whatsoever until the whole structure had developed and so would not have any survival value at all and probably the reverse.

Please stop pretending you know anything about evolution. It's getting kind of tiresome.

"Half a wing"
"Half a leg"
"Half a brain"

If you're going to critique a scientific field learn something about it before doing so. It's things like this that put the lie to this statement:

I'm not a scientist, that's true, but I like to think I am able to "see the wood for the trees" in some of the arguments that are put forward.

No, Not_By_Chance, you are not able to "see the wood for the trees". You can't even see the trees. You're alone in a desert. With an armchair. You're the biological equivalent of this guy:



Please, before you spend even more time showing us just how little you understand the evidence available for the theory of evolution, go out and actually spend some time learning about it from sources that aren't ICR, AiG, and other creationist sources. Because, again, the massive scientific consensus stands behind evolution. For some reason, almost every single person who has studied biology accepts the theory of evolution as true. Somehow you don't seem to agree. But then again, you aren't a scientist. You have not studied biology to any meaningful degree. So I guess I'm not surprised.
 
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USincognito

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Just a few initial thoughts on some of what has been said above.

I'll separate out NBC's comments with >> and <<. My replies will be unadorned.

>> A good article about problems with this can be found here: <<

Not particularly. It merely rehashes known astrophysical issues that are covered better in other sources geared to laymen. I'd also point out that the author, Rod Bernitt, instead of admitting that the observed neutrino data showed that the sun is a fusion reaction and thus has to be billions of years old, comes up with an ad hoc "it was created that way 6,000 years ago" argument.
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_1/j17_1_64-65.pdf

>> I would recommend watching the second DVD by Spike Psarris <<

Why would we watch a DVD by a guy with an engineering background and no formal training in astronomy or astrophysics?


>> Well. I've heard it called a "singularity", but even if that were what really happened, it would have had to have come from somewhere. Whichever way it is presented, it sounds like magic to me and therefore just a faith-based statement as no-one can prove it one way or the other. <<

That's nice. But, as I said, the Big Bang Theory doesn't propose "from nothing".

>> Even Darwin stated that this should be the case. I don't understand why you would say that there shouldn't be large numbers of intermediate forms in the fossil record if macro evolution had really taken place. <<

1. Actually he didn't.
2. Darwin wasn't the Apostle Paul or the Buddah.
3. What he noted was a paucity of transitional fossils and concluded that was due to the geological record.
"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."
4. My point was that certain environments are more conducive to fossilization. Jungles are particularly bad because the acidic soil tends to dissolve bones rather than preserve them.
5. As a percentage of all beings in a species, fossilization is quite rare for terrestrial vertebrates.

>> I'll need to look that one up, but (and I'm not a scientist myself), I would have thought that these organisms were more complex that the single living cell I referred to in my original text. <<

Then I guess you need to be more specific when you refer to a "single living cell".

>> Yes they do, it's called Noah's flood. <<

1. It's "an" explanation, but it's not a valid one.
2. The Flood was a falsified about 200 years ago. It's only gotten worse since then.

>> Dr David Mentons "Evolution - Not a Chance" <<

Have you ever searched the Internet to see if there are any critiques of Menton's work? If you're honesty trying to assess the information, you won't just watch videos by Creationists and conclude they are correct.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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D So are you saying that germs didn't cause any disease back then?




Is Ex 19 literal, or poetic?



Simply false. Hebrew scholars are clear that Genesis contains poetic language.


https://www.scienceandchristianbelief.org/serve_pdf_free.php?filename=SCB+12-2+Marston.pdf




Which obviously indicates the symbolic nature of the verses there, since there was only one person literally named "Adam". The "last Adam" is a symbol for someone not literally named "Adam", right?




You already see much of your Bible symbolically, as I've we've seen. Those verses are just as good and holy, so there is no "relegating" to allegory.

You also didn't address most of my points, A, B, C, E, etc.

In Christ-

Papias
Sorry, but there is too much posting going on here for me to respond to everything. However, in answer to your point about the Hebrew Scholars, it would seem that others would disagree with you:-

"Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

'Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

  • (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

  • (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story

  • (c) Noah's flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.

  • Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the “days” of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.' " Here's the link: http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c024.html
It's clear that there are many different opinions about all aspects of creation/evolution and even within Christianity itself. No-one can claim to be sure of having all the answers and numbers of supporters for each idea don't have any bearing on the ultimate reality of what is true and what is not. For myself, I believe that only God has all the answers, but His ways are so much higher than ours that we could not possibly begin to fully understand His creation. At the end of the day, I suppose the only thing that really matters is that one is content in their beliefs.
 
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Jimmy D

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Professor Barr is simply arguing that, in his words

"the apologetic arguments which suppose the “days” of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know."

He's not saying that he or anyone else (as far as he knows) believe the Genesis story to literally true.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Professor Barr is simply arguing that, in his words

"the apologetic arguments which suppose the “days” of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know."

He's not saying that he or anyone else (as far as he knows) believe the Genesis story to literally true.
But what about the first part, i.e., "
Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

  • (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
  • (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story"
 
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Not_By_Chance

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I also believe that the writers intended to convey those ideas, it doesn't mean that I think that it's anything other than myth. There's nothing in that quote to suggest Professor Barr would disagree.

That's not what it says above. If you take away the double negative, you end up with this:-

Probably, so far as I know, every professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university believes that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

  • (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
  • (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story"
It couldn't be more clear and if that's the case, they certainly don't believe that the Genesis account is myth.

I'm going to try to contact Professor Barr by e-mail to find out exactly what he does believe.
 
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