open theology

[myways]

Albert Einstein taught us that essentially: physicality and temporality are mutually inclusive properties of all that is a part of the natural universe. Which means that the physical world does have a temporal demention and that the future necessarily does "exist." If this is true, what does this mean for open theology?

Dave

 

[Cleany]

the perspective of that theory is one that cannot be experienced and can only be measured in an abstract way.

as people, the only thing that "exists" is now. to god, perhaps the only thing that exists is everything, this is speculation of course. you can be sure that one thing that doesnt exist is a empty and purely speculative perspective from which this theory is wriiten.

perhaps you are assuming that cosmic understanding comes from a (purely?) analytical method. i vote that you do this in error!

 

[Bernie02]

the perspective of that theory is one that cannot be experienced and can only be measured in an abstract way.

as people, the only thing that "exists" is now. to god, perhaps the only thing that exists is everything, this is speculation of course. you can be sure that one thing that doesnt exist is a empty and purely speculative perspective from which this theory is wriiten.

perhaps you are assuming that cosmic understanding comes from a (purely?) analytical method. i vote that you do this in error!

Cleany, are you suggesting that cosmic understanding, however you define it, lies completely outside analytic methodology? Doesn't open theology rely pretty much on this same analytic method?

 

[Cleany]

heh im not sure!

 

[ramled]

Albert Einstein taught us that essentially: physicality and temporality are mutually inclusive properties of all that is a part of the natural universe. Which means that the physical world does have a temporal demention and that the future necessarily does "exist." If this is true, what does this mean for open theology?

Dave

That even a smart guy like Einstein was wrong from time to time!

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Open theists: is Open Theology the same as Process Theology?

 

[ramled]

Open theists: is Open Theology the same as Process Theology?

I don't know what process theology is ,but I do believe that the future is open to a great extent

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Process theology is a philosophical system that uses Becoming rather than Being (which all of Western philosophy is based on) as the ultimate principle of existence. It argues that God exists within time and is always changing as the past and present become part of his experience. He knows all possibilities that could happen, but does not know which one actually will happen. There is no afterlife for process theology except in the sense of being "remembered" by God. God is also not omnipotent; he merely gives to every occasion its intended outcome and tries to persuade it to choose that outcome, but every occasion may also choose not to realize that outcome. Jesus was the incarnation of God in that he realized the desired outcome of his life in a perfect, ultimate way. God's only real "power" to bring about his desired end in history is persuasion; he cannot otherwise interfere with human choice. There is no guarantee that history will ever realize the outcome he intends for it to realize. We depend on God to tell us the desired ending, and he depends on us to realize it. John Cobb is the original process theologian; he based the theology on the philosophical system of a gentleman named Whitehead.

-CK

 

[ramled]

Process theology is a philosophical system that uses Becoming rather than Being (which all of Western philosophy is based on) as the ultimate principle of existence. It argues that God exists within time and is always changing as the past and present become part of his experience. He knows all possibilities that could happen, but does not know which one actually will happen. There is no afterlife for process theology except in the sense of being "remembered" by God. God is also not omnipotent; he merely gives to every occasion its intended outcome and tries to persuade it to choose that outcome, but every occasion may also choose not to realize that outcome. Jesus was the incarnation of God in that he realized the desired outcome of his life in a perfect, ultimate way. God's only real "power" to bring about his desired end in history is persuasion; he cannot otherwise interfere with human choice. There is no guarantee that history will ever realize the outcome he intends for it to realize. We depend on God to tell us the desired ending, and he depends on us to realize it. John Cobb is the original process theologian; he based the theology on the philosophical system of a gentleman named Whitehead.

-CK

Assuming process theology is as you describe I would refer to it as an open view but one that is distinctly different from what the Bible describes. Biblical"Open Theism" describes God as perceiving events as they really happen, in chronological order. God created the Earth before he created man... God created Adam before the fall... The fall of man happened before the flood and actually caused the flood...God sent his Son ...God became flesh before He died for our sins (but He is not currently suffering on the cross in some eternal now )...Jesus rose on the third day and death was defeated (Jesus is no longer dead) etc...
God has granted man the actual ability to make choices that do affect the future. He knows all possibilities that could happen, but does not know everychoice that every human will make as they have not yet made these choices. God does know all things that have happened all things that are currently happening and all things that he will cause to happen. (He knew, for example, that he was going to cause Pharro to "let my people go")

 

[ramled]

Albert Einstein taught us that essentially: physicality and temporality are mutually inclusive properties of all that is a part of the natural universe. Which means that the physical world does have a temporal demention and that the future necessarily does "exist." If this is true, what does this mean for open theology?

Dave

By the way Dave, you are right. If Einstein was correct and the future does exsist then it does mean that my beliefs are wrong.

 

[ramled]

bump

 

[EchoPneuma]

THe bible says that God knows the beginning and the end. He is above time and lives in the eternal present. It also says that it is HE who acts IN US to will and to do according to His good purposes. It is HIS will that will prevail ultimately because He is sovereign.

Open theology sounds like a system that relegates God to a lesser position than sovereign power over the universe and makes Him in some aspects subject to the will of man. That is not the God of the bible.

 

[myways]

cleanly:

the measurement of einstein's theory is most certianly not just abstract speculation. (I think,that is.) If I can find a link, I'll post later an instance of two men with sycronized clocks where one flys really fast in space and the other remains on earth, and when they get back, the flying man is shown to have traveled a few million-fafillionths of a second into the future.


Ramled,

well, yes it means you are wrong. If the future does exist then God must be "present" there. And if He is present, then he must know what is going on there.

 

[ramled]

THe bible says that God knows the beginning and the end. He is above time and lives in the eternal present. It also says that it is HE who acts IN US to will and to do according to His good purposes. It is HIS will that will prevail ultimately because He is sovereign.

Open theology sounds like a system that relegates God to a lesser position than sovereign power over the universe and makes Him in some aspects subject to the will of man. That is not the God of the bible.

Where does the Bible say that God is outside of time?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Where does the Bible say that God is outside of time?

This is no scripture that says "Thus saith the Lord, I am outside of time".

But there are many places that say that God is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end...that He knows the beginning from the end that He has foreknowledge, perfect knowledge. etc. The only way these things could be true is if He inhabited all of time as a whole....meaning He lives in the eternal present....above time if you will....He inhabits all of time at the same time...not being confined to either past, present or future but looking at it all as a whole....not in a linear fashion as we do.

That is what I mean by Him being "above" time. Since Paul said that "IN HIM we live, and move and have our being".....then all of human existence and time as we know it must be IN HIM. Eternity and existence is within God Himself, hence He would not experience time as we do. We view it as a linear dimension that we experience one moment after the next....He would view it as a whole, being both at the beginning (the Alpha) at the end (the Omega) and everywhere in between.

 

[ramled]

This is no scripture that says "Thus saith the Lord, I am outside of time".

But there are many places that say that God is the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end...

Sort of vague don't you think?

that He knows the beginning from the end

You and I know the difference between the begining and end

that He has foreknowledge, perfect knowledge. etc.

I agree that God has perfect knowledge of the present and the past and of all things he has allready decided to make happen in the future .

The only way these things could be true is if He inhabited all of time as a whole....meaning He lives in the eternal present....above time if you will....He inhabits all of time at the same time

you are guessing

...not being confined to either past, present or future but looking at it all as a whole....not in a linear fashion as we do.

That is what I mean by Him being "above" time. Since Paul said that "IN HIM we live, and move and have our being".....then all of human existence and time as we know it must be IN HIM. Eternity and existence is within God Himself, hence He would not experience time as we do. We view it as a linear dimension that we experience one moment after the next....He would view it as a whole, being both at the beginning (the Alpha) at the end (the Omega) and everywhere in between.

I repeat the Bible shows God doing things in chronological order and never implies that he can not discern the difference between the present and the past.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Sort of vague don't you think?

No, I don't think so. It seems clear to me.

You and I know the difference between the begining and end I agree that God has perfect knowledge of the present and the past and of all things he has allready decided to make happen in the future .

If He has PERFECT knowledge of past, present and future, how could this be without Him inhabiting all of it at the same time? Are you limiting God?

you are guessing

No, I'm looking at the scriptural evidence and forming a conclusion based on the evidence.

I repeat the Bible shows God doing things in chronological order and never implies that he can not discern the difference between the present and the past.

So what? Just because God acts WITHIN time for our benefit doesn't mean that He isn't still inhabiting all of it at the same time.

How about what Paul says about all of existence being WITHIN God? Time is part of existence isn't it? How could God be bounded by time if time itself was WITHIN God?

 

[ramled]

No, I don't think so. It seems clear to me.



If He has PERFECT knowledge of past, present and future, how could this be without Him inhabiting all of it at the same time? Are you limiting God?

no,i am not limiting God. I am just not reading things into the Bible that are not there.

No, I'm looking at the scriptural evidence and forming a conclusion based on the evidence.

The evidence shows that God does, in fact, react to what people do and responds accordingly. He even changes his intented plans. Jer 18 The moment I speak concerning a nation...

So what? Just because God acts WITHIN time for our benefit doesn't mean that He isn't still inhabiting all of it at the same time.

How about what Paul says about all of existence being WITHIN God? Time is part of existence isn't it? How could God be bounded by time if time itself was WITHIN God?

Time is a concept nothing more. A sequence of events. A way of keeeping score if you will. How does the fact that God created the Earth before he created man limit him in any way?

 

[EchoPneuma]

no,i am not limiting God. I am just not reading things into the Bible that are not there.

Neither am I. I see that God says that He is the Alpha and Omega....Beginning and End....and that He has perfect foreknowledge of all events. That means that He inhabits all of time. I don't see how it can mean anything else.

The evidence shows that God does, in fact, react to what people do and responds accordingly. He even changes his intented plans. Jer 18 The moment I speak concerning a nation...

What does that have to do with what we're discussing? Are you saying that some things take God unawares? That He has to change His plans because something took Him by surprise? He deals with man based on the fact that He has made MAN time bound.....that has nothing to do with God having any limitations.

Time is a concept nothing more. A sequence of events. A way of keeeping score if you will.

Time is a DIMENSION created by God for man to inhabit. It has seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, and years and God has regulated it by our solar system so that it is exact. It's not just a concept or sequence of events. It's a God created regulated way of keeping track of the passage of the dimension known as "time". Even if there were no events.....time would still pass. Even if no score was being kept....time would still pass. The sequence of solar system movements allow us to know HOW MUCH time has passed....but it would still pass even if we didn't keep track of it. It's a real dimension that God has placed man INTO....which He Himself is not bound by.

How does the fact that God created the Earth before he created man limit him in any way?

What are you asking here? I didn't say that GOd was limited in any way. I said that Paul said that all of existence (which would include the dimension of time) are WITHIN God Himself....so therefore how could He be bound by it or be within time, if it is within Him?

 

[ramled]

Neither am I. I see that God says that He is the Alpha and Omega....Beginning and End....and that He has perfect foreknowledge of all events. That means that He inhabits all of time. I don't see how it can mean anything else.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God has perfect forknlowledge of all events.

What does that have to do with what we're discussing? Are you saying that some things take God unawares?

Yes

That He has to change His plans because something took Him by surprise?

That is what the Bible shows us

Gen6:5 Then *the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

He deals with man based on the fact that He has made MAN time bound.....that has nothing to do with God having any limitations.



Time is a DIMENSION created by God for man to inhabit. It has seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, and years and God has regulated it by our solar system so that it is exact. It's not just a concept or sequence of events. It's a God created regulated way of keeping track of the passage of the dimension known as "time". Even if there were no events.....time would still pass. Even if no score was being kept....time would still pass. The sequence of solar system movements allow us to know HOW MUCH time has passed....but it would still pass even if we didn't keep track of it. It's a real dimension that God has placed man INTO....which He Himself is not bound by.

and there is no reason to belive God does not experience all of it in order

What are you asking here? I didn't say that GOd was limited in any way. I said that Paul said that all of existence (which would include the dimension of time) are WITHIN God Himself....so therefore how could He be bound by it or be within time, if it is within Him?