Open Theism

[servant4ever]

Hello all, I started a thread like this on the liberal theology forum, but this is probably a better forum, I am an open theist, what are your opinions on Open Theism. I am going to copy over my message from before:

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will. For example, if God had foreknown that Adam and Eve would eventually take fruit from the tree, why would have God placed the temptation. He knew it would have been a possibility that Adam and Eve would have fallen into sin, but He did not know the free choice Adam and Eve would have chosen.

servant4ever

 

[Joshua Howard]

God knows everything, thus, he knows the future. God does not change the future, though he foreknows it; We cannot understand the ways of God fully, but one thing which we must understand is that God has no limits.

 

[victoryword]

Hello all, I started a thread like this on the liberal theology forum, but this is probably a better forum, I am an open theist, what are your opinions on Open Theism. I am going to copy over my message from before:

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will. For example, if God had foreknown that Adam and Eve would eventually take fruit from the tree, why would have God placed the temptation. He knew it would have been a possibility that Adam and Eve would have fallen into sin, but He did not know the free choice Adam and Eve would have chosen.

servant4ever

Hey servant4ever

Check out this discussion on the Charismatic Forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t83114

Would love to get your input there.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Hello all, I started a thread like this on the liberal theology forum, but this is probably a better forum, I am an open theist, what are your opinions on Open Theism. I am going to copy over my message from before:

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will. For example, if God had foreknown that Adam and Eve would eventually take fruit from the tree, why would have God placed the temptation. He knew it would have been a possibility that Adam and Eve would have fallen into sin, but He did not know the free choice Adam and Eve would have chosen.

YOUR "speculation" gets in the way of what the scripture says. The Bible calls these "speculations" FABLES:

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 4:6-7 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

You would be hard pressed to justify your doctrine. God IS "omniscience", that is ALL knowing. Examples abound in the scriptures:

THERE IS NOTHING THAT GOD DOES NOT KNOW:
Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

EVEN THE NUMBER OF HAIRS ON YOUR HEAD:
Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

MAN MAY BE LIMITED IN FOREKNOWLEDGE, BUT GOD IS NOT:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

As for your FABLE about Adam, the crowning Glory of God upon His Creation is Christ, and He wasn't manifested till 4,000 years AFTER the creation. So read the following carefully with that in mind:

Romans 8:19-23 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I pray you are delivered from that DEMONIC doctrine.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[jbarcher]

servant4ever, your presentation of free will appears to me as that we are in control of our own fate.

If that is indeed what you say free will is, then I have two questions for you:

1. Is man that powerful?
2. Where is the Biblical justification?

 

[servant4ever]

Dad Ernie,

Even though I am disappointed on the non-Christian character you have shown in your post, I want to ask you to please be more Christ-like the next time you post. Christ says to love each other, not to call each other demons. I am a servant of Jesus Christ, and He is the only truth that us humans need to get right. It does not matter whether or not we believe in predestination or open theism. It doesn't matter whether or not we believe in believer's baptism or infant baptist. All it matters if a person calls on the name of the Lord, and they shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

Since you personally don't believe in open theism, you call it demonic and a fable. Sounds funny that you think it is me thinking up of open theism, which, actually, Greg Boyd from St. Paul, Minnesota founded this belief. How do you explain when God has changed His mind? He can't have the future foreknown if He changes His mind. You are thinking I'm making this up, but it is in the Bible. How about this passage in 2 Kings 20. The Lord spoke through Isaiah, saying "Thus says the Lord: set your house in order, for you shall die; you SHALL NOT RECOVER." (verse 1) How do you explain 5 verses later in 2 Kings 20:6 saying "I will add fifteen (15) years to your life."

Yes, I do agree with you, Dad Ernie, that God DOES know everything, all the different possibilities, where He would know a LOT more than a foreknown future, since a foreknown future is only one road, not all the possibilities, where there are INFINITE roads. Yes, only the Father knows all the possibilities where the end of the age will come. He knows that if possibility 1 happens, it will happen at this time, where as if possibility 2 happens, it will happen at another time, and so on.

Now with the tree in the Garden. Just think about this, and please be open minded. Imagine where you have a cookie jar in a room with a 2 year old, your screenname says dad in it, so I am assuming that you are a dad, so you can understand where this is coming. Will you leave the cookie jar in the same room with the 2 year old if you leave the room after telling them that they can not eat a cookie? Of course not! You know what the 2 year old will do if they are left alone with the cookie jar, they will steal a cookie and eat it. You don't know the exact way they will choose it. For example, they could decide to take the cookie after 15 seconds, or 1 minute, 5 minutes, and so on; or they could decide NOT to take the cookie. You, the dad, do not know what they will choose. It is the same with God, but on a larger scale. We, His children, are placed in a room with the cookie jar. We have to choose, and trust me, God does not know since we have a total free will.

If we don't have a free will, then it is not love when God commands us to love. Love has to be a free action, for it is not love at all. For example, you receive a shirt you hated for Christmas as a child. You don't like it at all, and you don't want to wear the shirt. But, your mom makes you wear it, and makes you say you LOVE the shirt, or you will get in trouble. The child and the mom go shopping, the child is "loving" the shirt so he can be in good terms with his mother. But, we know the child does not truly love the shirt since he hated it in the beginning. Thus, since there is love, we have to have a free will. That doesn't make sense, does it? It is because God doesn't make us love Him, WE have to love Him on our own. We are not forced to love, as to see we are all not Christians in this world. There is even some hate between Christians, just like I got to see from your post.

If God can foreknow the future, then He has to predestine people. If He predestines people, then the Bible is false. How can God not want any to perish and How can God die for the whole world if He only died for the Christians He predestined? How can John 3:16 say that WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life if He knows and selects the people beforehand.

Sorry if this is too long, I can talk all day on this topic, God bless

servant4ever

 

[Deamiter]

God knows everything, thus, he knows the future. God does not change the future, though he foreknows it; We cannot understand the ways of God fully, but one thing which we must understand is that God has no limits.

This is not necessarily correct. God does not necessarily exist outside of time - though he created it. Whether or not God is bounded by time is a bit of a mystery - and to be honest it's one that the Israelites would never have even imagined. Just be aware that it isn't clear enough to be definative.

I want to ask you to please be more Christ-like the next time you post.

Servant - nobody called you a demon! You MUST be more careful in reading the posts, or you'll get insulted where no insult is meant! He is calling the doctrine evil, even though I think that even this is unfounded. Divine foreknowledge does not seem a necessary issue to faith, though I believe we are all called to seek the truth. There are many false teachings out there - though I believe this is an issue that is muddy enough in the Bible to warrent debate - not blatant rejection.

The Lord spoke through Isaiah, saying "Thus says the Lord: set your house in order, for you shall die; you SHALL NOT RECOVER." (verse 1) How do you explain 5 verses later in 2 Kings 20:6 saying "I will add fifteen (15) years to your life."

Your view of God is limiting His influence - and I see no reason to superimpose this on a God who clearly created time. If something is created by God, how can it then limit God? God existed before time, and will exist after time, and why do you assume that something bounded by our universe (time) also bounds God?

Finally, you are in serious error to assume that Greg Boyd came up with open theism. It's been around for hundreds of years in one form or another. Also, you might consider that just because somebody has come up with a new way of seeing the Bible - should be reason to AVOID or at least study that view, not to grasp it with both hands. There is a good reason that our Christian theologians in the past have settled on a certain interpretation of the Bible. They are not always correct - but be wary of entirely opposite views - as they are likely a misinterpretation.

Just out of curiosity, have you read Boyd's books? If so, could you cite some arguements from them on open theism (with reference if possible).

I can attest personally to Greg Boyd's Christianity though. He used to teach at my University, and his influence extends beyond his church and my school. He is an amazing preacher and has an amazing mind. Also, like Calvin (who believed the exact opposite on predestination and preached only ONE sermon on it his entire life), Greg Boyd avoids this subject in his preaching as he sees it as theological nitpicking, not a necessary belief for our salvation. This man is obviously a strong Christian, but that certainly doesn't mean that his views are therefore correct. Boyd's faith should spur further research on the subject - not prove it to you so quickly.

I just mentioned his character as I'd caution others to be so quick to demonize a view that HAS been very widely debated within Christianity. You can tell from my posts whatmy views are, but I am in no way certain that my views are correct on this issue. Greg Boyd wrote a wonderful book on suffering called "Is God to Blame" but I can't remember how much it covered open theism.

 

[Dan1824]

Even though I am disappointed on the non-Christian character you have shown in your post, I want to ask you to please be more Christ-like the next time you post. Christ says to love each other, not to call each other demons.

First, no one called you a demon.

Second, was the apostle Paul writing in a "non-Christian" manner when He said in Gal 1:6-9 -


6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Open Theism is another gospel. It is not unloving of any here to tell the truth that those who hold false gospels will be accursed. The opposite is true.

The loving call is to advise you to repent, lest you perish.

I am a servant of Jesus Christ, and He is the only truth that us humans need to get right.

This is false. However, you do not "get Jesus Christ right" either.

You say that Jesus Christ (eternal God) is not omniscient; that if God (Jesus Christ) foreknew all things, then we do not have free will. The Jesus you describe is not the Jesus of the scriptures.

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Deamiter,

Yes, I have read some of Greg Boyd's books, I have read Letters from a Skeptic, God of the Possible, Is God to Blame?, the theology book named Across the Spectrum, which is co-authored with Paul R. Eddy, and I have read his contribution in the book Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views edited by James K. Beilby and Paul R. Eddy. Yes, God has always been an open theist God, but what I am saying is that Greg Boyd was the first person to actually speak out about it, and he coined the term "open view of God," or for short, open theism (Preface, God of the Possible) In your response to the time issue with God. If God knew beforehand that He was not going to kill the person, rather than kill, wouldn't that be a lie if He told the person that he was going to be dead? It says in Hebrews that it is impossible for God to lie.

Look forward to your responses,

servant4ever

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Servent4Ever,

As has been pointed out, I called no one a demon, thanks to those who clarified this.

You may want to consider these verses:

2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Cor 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Also as to your salvation, you may want to consider ALL the implications of the following:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Those who "preach another gospel, than the one given", are certainly not producing any "good works".

You may also want to ponder:

1 Cor 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[servant4ever]

[/i]

This is false. However, you do not "get Jesus Christ right" either.

You say that Jesus Christ (eternal God) is not omniscient; that if God (Jesus Christ) foreknew all things, then we do not have free will. The Jesus you describe is not the Jesus of the scriptures.

Dan,

It is obvious you don't think I'm a Christian. It is only God to know if I am a Christian or not. What makes a person a Christian? Romans 10:13 states it plain and simple: for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!" (NIV) I am a born again Christian. I have been redeemed by His blood. You are telling me I have a different Jesus in mind. Jesus is God, He is the Word of God, He is love. Yep, that is Jesus. He was human, He lived a perfect life. Yep, Jesus. He was born of a virgin. He died on a cross and was buried and rose again! Yep, that's Jesus. He is the only way to God, yes, He is Jesus. God is omniscient, He knows all the different possibilities, He knows all the different paths that we can choose from. He has more knowledge if He knows all different paths for everyone, rather than just one. Jesus is God, and God knows everything that is possible. I would ask that you please refrain from saying I'm not a Christian, because I have called on the name of the Lord, and I am a Christian.

I would recommend reading the book "God of the Possible" by Greg Boyd. I have a feeling you are misunderstanding what is being said, so it explains Open Theism in depth.

I hope this clarifies things,

In Jesus Christ, who died for everyone's sins and whoever calls on Him will be saved,

servant4ever

 

[Deamiter]

ok... just a second. Could we have more debate on the open theism and less on whether one who preaches falsly is supported by God? Nobody disagrees that false teaching is absolutely WRONG, but instead of simply shouting at Servant and saying he's a false teacher, how about more evidence that the view is in fact wrong?

For example, how DOES free will work if God created Adam and Eve KNOWING that he was creating them TO sin. He could have created them differently, but he created them as they were - knowing they would sin. Did they have the choice to NOT eat the fruit?

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Dad Ernie,

Just to clear this up, since I am an open theist, I am preaching another gospel, thus I am not producing good works, thus I am not a Christian? Before I received Christ into my life, I was a very cruel and uncaring person. Ever since I received Christ to be my Lord, and I His servant, I have gradually increased in being a nicer and caring person. I had roommate problems last year, and my roommates actually told me that I was one of the best Christians they have ever seen. Yes, there are times when I fail, as we all are, even the apostles claim that they were the worst of sinners. I don't think I am preaching another gospel, I'm preaching Jesus Christ, who died for my sins, and if I call on His name, I am saved! What else is there? Jesus is full of love, grace, compassion, and so much more I can't mention here. I am not saying people are calling me a demon or calling anyone a modern day "Pharisee", but the Pharisee's back in the first century even thought Jesus was a demon. But, we know Jesus Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. And for your information, I attend Woodland Hills Church in St. Paul, Minnesota, the church Greg Boyd is Senior Pastor for. The church is the most caring church I have ever attended, people were offering up their seats in a jam-packed worship center so I could sit. Greg Boyd is one of the greatest Christians I have seen, he has done great works. So, I encourage you to consider that maybe Open Theism is not preaching another Jesus, but in fact, the same Jesus. I also encourage you to maybe think that there are true Christians who believe different from you.

God bless,

servant4ever

 

[Crazy Liz]

First, no one called you a demon.

Second, was the apostle Paul writing in a "non-Christian" manner when He said in Gal 1:6-9 -


6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Open Theism is another gospel. It is not unloving of any here to tell the truth that those who hold false gospels will be accursed. The opposite is true.

The loving call is to advise you to repent, lest you perish.



This is false. However, you do not "get Jesus Christ right" either.

You say that Jesus Christ (eternal God) is not omniscient; that if God (Jesus Christ) foreknew all things, then we do not have free will. The Jesus you describe is not the Jesus of the scriptures.

Dan and Ernie, I think you have the burden to demonstrate that Open Theism is "another gospel," before making the statements you have made. After studying this question, I feel quite confident than the God of classical theism is the God of the scriptures. I'm not sure the open theists have it all figured out, but they have a very valid biblical critique of classical theism.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I'm not familiar with Boyd, but I have read Pinnock, Sanders, et. al. Has anyone else here read them?

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Servent4ever,

Here are the omni-qualities of God:

Omniscience - ALL knowing
Omnipresent - In Him and through Him all things consist and have their being
Omnipotence - ALL powerful
Eternal - Without beginning and without end, forever One God.

To say that God is less than any of these is to "limit" God in that capacity. He is not like us who must look at various options before selecting the one we thing will work for us, instead He sees the end from the beginning. There is NOTHING that He does not know. There is ONLY one course of action for any particular event, and that is "the one taken". God KNOWS period. You are attempting to understand this quality of God? Are you also interested in His OTHER qualities? Are any of them ALSO diminished in any way in your mind?

The "spiritual interprets the spiritual". IOW, the Word of God interprets the Word of God. It is not up to man to decide the correct interpretation. The Lord tells us:

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

and another good verse:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If any of us have differences in understanding, we should be like the Bereans and check out what the scriptures say.

I know nothing about Greg Boyd, and as far as I know may be right on in many of his doctrines, however, this particular doctrine is NOT a part of the Bible.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Ernie,

I agree with all the statements you said above. God Himself is omniscient. He knows everything, all the possible outcomes to all the choices we make. He knows the number of hairs on our head. He is an awesome God who allows us to have free will. From the book God of the Possible by Greg Boyd, when talking about the world-wide flood with Noah, he says, "Now, if everything about world history were exhaustively settled and known by God as such before he created the world, God would have known with absolute certainty that humans would come to this wicked state, at just this time, before he created them. But, how, then could he authentically regret having made humankind? Doesn't the fact that God regretted the way things turned out--to the point of starting over--suggest that it wasn't a foregone conclusion at the time God created human beings that they would fall into this state of wickedness (God of the Possible, p. 55)?" I am going to expand on that statement. Why would God regret making humankind? If you regret doing something, that means you wish you never did that thing, it turned out worse than expected. I know I sometimes regret going to college away from home, because some things have turned out worse than I was hoping, I had horrible roommates last year. That is the exact thing that happened to God, He wished He never created humankind, and it turned out worse than expected. All God wants is a relationship with humankind, and it was not happening like that.

I think Open Theism is clear in the Bible, look at the Israelite nation in the Old Testament. How many times did God have to tell them to do something? God had in mind that the Israelite nation would be in the promisedland in a short time. But, we all know what happens, they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. This is because people went their own way and didn't do what God wanted to do. God wanted them in the promisedland, if God knew that, why would He make 10 spies deny going into the land and 2 approve going into the land? To me at least, it doesn't make sense, the only clear choice is open theism. God knows every possibility that will happen after a choice we make.

Anyways, I have a Bible paper to write on Luke 13:10-17, hoping someday I will be healed from God of my disability, it is a possibility! God bless you all!

servant4ever

 

[Dan1824]

Servant,



The Jesus of Open Theism is not omniscient.

You may say He is; however, you can only say that by redefining omniscience.

Here is your definition of omniscience:

God Himself is omniscient. He knows everything, all the possible outcomes to all the choices we make.

The important missing ingredient in your above definition is that of whether He knows which are the actual outcomes of all of the choices that we make. If He only know all of the possible outcomes, but does not know which of those "possibilities" is the actual out come, then He is not omniscient.

If He only knows the actual outcome of every choice when that choice has actually occurred, then He is learning (or increasing in knowledge) as time goes by.

The Jesus of Open Theism is not the Sovereign Governor of His creation, working all things according to His eternal purposes, but is one who makes temporal descisions, and then "regretted the way things turned out [sic]".

This is another Jesus.

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

This verse is true. Yet who is Lord? The Lord of Historic Orthodoxy is not the same Lord as that of Open Theism.


Check out this web site. It answers many of the "proof texts" of Open Theism:

http://www.carm.org/open.htm

 

[Dad Ernie]

Good post Dan.

Servant4ever, you question God about being remorseful of His creation. If YOU were GOD and had HIS mind, you might begin to understand what He was saying. But you, even as myself are ONLY human with finite properties, limited in our thinking, our power, our presence and our life. God has frequently spoken to man in "anthropomorphic" terminology. For instance it is said that "He is a DOOR", that "He is a flaming fire", that "He has a sword for a tongue". God speaks to us in words that have meaning to our understanding.

In most instances in the scriptures He gives man an option, "do this & live, do that and die". Yet He KNOWS what our choice is going to be even before we make it. It is man that lacks COMPLETE knowledge, NOT God.

In regards to Jonah and Ninevah. God said He was going to destroy Ninevah, but He sent Jonah to bring them to repentence, which he ultimately did, and Ninevah repented. But guess what? God's prophecy about their ultimate destruction remained and many years later they were totally destroyed.

I see lots' of speculation ONLY regarding this false doctrine of yours. I suggest you quite listening to man and start listening to an ALL KNOWING GOD.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[servant4ever]

Ernie and Dan, this is not ONLY my doctrine, many people in the Christian church believe this. God is ALL-KNOWING, He knows all the possibilities that will ever happen. He knows what will happen after EVERY choice possible. For example, if I decide to wake up at 7:00 in the morning tomorrow, He knows what the next choices will be, whereas if I wake up at 8:00 in the morning, He knows what the totally different choices I have. As for those verses on carm.org, I could see how the explainations "disprove" open theism, but it is all up for interpretation. You should show me "proof" verses for foreknowledge, and I could interpret them totally different. Dr. Gregory A. Boyd points out that it looks like even Jesus believed in Open Theism. It says, "yet another impressive example of the Lord speaking about the future in open terms is found in Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus 'threw himself on the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass fom me'' (Matthew 26:39). ... This makes it all the more amazing that Jesus makes on last attempt to change his Father's plan 'if it is possible' (God of the Possible, p. 71)." Why would Jesus ask that this cup pass from Him if He knew that God had the future already in place, and it cannot change? Jesus must have known that God can change His mind and that the future is open. But, as we know, God didn't change His mind. Jesus could have went a different path, but He did as what God wanted. God could have changed His mind and destroyed all the people opposed to Jesus. But, it was what God wanted. God did not want anything bad to happen to mankind, we did it to ourselves. At least to me, this is clear that God is open to the future.

As a request, Dan and Ernie, would you be willing to look at an open theist website? The website is http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=257. There are links to the right where you can look up Biblical Evidence and then look up passages that looks like the future is settled, and have them explained. I did look at www.carm.org, and I only ask you look at the website I provide.

Have a blessed night,

servant4ever