Open Theism

zelosravioli said:

I spe
I explained this already in detail in this thread... knowledge of what can or will happen before it happens. God can because God can predict all actions, and He can read the minds of all beings, read their biological conditions, knows the physics of everything that exists

Click to expand...

And to say that God can predict in that sense is to deny libertarian free will.

If my choices are determined by (and predictable from) my state of mind, feelings, memory, biological conditions and the laws of physics, then I don't have libertarian free will.

In fact, if the future is (mostly) predictable, then it is (mostly) written. Open Theism denies that.

I can't say I know for an absolute how all this works but what an brilliant God our Lord is. (Of course he is he's God) A personal story. Many years ago I had what I'll call a certain legal problem and was in my room praying in quite a troubled way. I kept saying, God You've Got To Speak To Me. Please speak to me and give me some wisdom! I went down stairs a moment later and clicked on a Christian program and a man said on the program praying something like, "There's a young man watching today who has this (and he mentioned the problem) The Lord says this to you, (and he went on to make some declarations) It wasn't some vague words either it was very precise what the problem was!

I was so elated and felt like a ton of bricks fell off my shoulders. About 30 minutes later let's just call it a government agent who was coming to have an appointment he made with me knocked on the door and we talked. First thing I said to him was something like, "Look let me tell you something. I'm a Christian. And this whole thing has really upset me. Right before you came I was praying on my knees in my bedroom asking God to straighten out this whole situation which really I had done nothing wrong, and I asked him to speak to me.

And I told him I came down here and clicked a Christian program and God spoke to me, and I told him what exactly was said! He said in effect, "Really! Are you serious? That REALLY HAPPENED just before I came?" I told him yes. Well he looked kind of scared and said, "Well, well, well....um.....you know I don't think you did anything wrong! I'm just going to put down on this report that I checked it out and considered his explanation of things was good!"

And that was it! Never heard from them again and that was about 25 years ago. I said all that to say this. When I got to thinking about this Christian program it was a rerun of a past program and they filmed this many months prior to my praying . This was not a LIVE program. I got to thinking that means God was working and orchestrating an answer to my prayer which had to begin months prior and had it arrive to me at just the right moment and second in time. Amazing! It does seem to me that he'd have to be outside of time to line this up but I guess he'll tell me some day.

Pneuma3 said:

This is why I am a semi open theist. I agree that foreknowledge, to use your words, is something written.but as scripture shows God also searches and test things so that He will know.

Scripture tells me God knows the beginning and the end. thus because all things begin in Him all things will end in Him and that is just what the scriptures tell us will come about. These are things God will do and nothing can stay His had. it is written.

However all the in between stuff that happens is not written because God searches and test us so He will know whether we will keep his commandments or not. Thus if God must test and search us so that He knows what we will do that implies what we will do is not written and thus open.

So for me I can agree with both views in part.

Click to expand...

Why do you call your position semi open? It sounds exactly like open theism to me. Closed theists say everything in between (as you put it) is also written. But we have seen with the various everyday examples discussed here that it makes no sense for God to write everything in between from eternity past.

ghtan said:

Why do you call your position semi open? It sounds exactly like open theism to me. Closed theists say everything in between (as you put it) is also written. But we have seen with the various everyday examples discussed here that it makes no sense for God to write everything in between from eternity past.

Click to expand...

Because full open theism do not believe in static foreknowledge, and I do where it concerns what God will do, but when it comes to what man will do it is not static but must be tested and searched out.

Pneuma3 said:

Because full open theism do not believe in static foreknowledge, and I do where it concerns what God will do, but when it comes to what man will do it is not static but must be tested and searched out.

Click to expand...

But almost everything that happens is influenced by the prior actions of one or more human beings. Because of the "butterfly effect," even the weather.

If God cannot foreknow people's actions, then He can foreknow virtually nothing.

Radagast said:

But almost everything that happens is influenced by the prior actions of one or more human beings. Because of the "butterfly effect," even the weather.

If God cannot foreknow people's actions, then He can foreknow virtually nothing.

Click to expand...

I never said God cannot foreknow, I believe He does. However most believe His foreknowledge of a thing must be from eternity past yet scriptures, and I gave many in my article, show that where man is concerned Gods foreknowledge is not from eternity past but an active foreknowledge, a foreknowledge that seeks out and test to see what man will do.

A perfect example is abe and Isaac. God did not know whether abe would withhold his son from him until after He tested him.

Yet before abe could drive his knife into his son God stopped him because God saw into his heart and KNEW/foreknew that abe would do it.

Pneuma3 said:

A perfect example is abe and Isaac. God did not know whether abe would withhold his son from him until after He tested him.

Click to expand...

Then you don't believe in foreknowledge, you're just expressing yourself in a confusing way.

Pneuma3 said:

I never said God cannot foreknow, I believe He does. However most believe His foreknowledge of a thing must be from eternity past yet scriptures, and I gave many in my article, show that where man is concerned Gods foreknowledge is not from eternity past but an active foreknowledge, a foreknowledge that seeks out and test to see what man will do.

A perfect example is abe and Isaac. God did not know whether abe would withhold his son from him until after He tested him.

Yet before abe could drive his knife into his son God stopped him because God saw into his heart and KNEW/foreknew that abe would do it.

Click to expand...

Radagast said:

Then you don't believe in foreknowledge, you're just expressing yourself in a confusing way.

Click to expand...

Read what I said again and think on it before replying.

Question: why can't foreknowledge of an event be 30, 20, 10,2 or even 1 second before the event happens? If God foreknew abe would kill his son just before he did it, is that not foreknowledge?

Pneuma3 said:

Question: why can't foreknowledge of an event be 30, 20, 10,2 or even 1 second before the event happens? If God foreknew abe would kill his son just before he did it, is that not foreknowledge?

Click to expand...

No. "Divine foreknowledge" has a definite meaning in theology, and that's not it.

I guess @ghtan was right; you're an Open Theist.

I don't remember defining this as divine foreknowledge.
If I know what your gonna do one day, one minute, or one micro second, ahead of you, for me that is foreknowledge enough to call it foreknowledge.

Radagast said:

No. "Divine foreknowledge" has a definite meaning in theology, and that's not it.

I guess @ghtan was right; you're an Open Theist.

Click to expand...

does it? and you did not answer my question. now why would that be?

zelosravioli said:

I don't remember defining this as divine foreknowledge.
If I know what your gonna do one day, one minute, or one micro second, ahead of you, for me that is foreknowledge enough to call it foreknowledge.

Click to expand...

Pneuma3 said:

does it? and you did not answer my question.

Click to expand...

I did. The letter "N" and "O" spell out a negative response.

Radagast said:

I did. The letter "N" and "O" spell out a negative response.

Click to expand...

Well then what would 'you' call knowing something ahead of time before it happens?

Pneuma3 said:

Because full open theism do not believe in static foreknowledge, and I do where it concerns what God will do, but when it comes to what man will do it is not static but must be tested and searched out.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by static foreknowledge? Is it that God will not change his mind about what he has decided? If that is what you mean, then my understanding is that God can choose to keep to what he plans to do or he can choose to change his plans. He is sovereign after all. When God changes his mind, it is usually because the plan was conditional e.g. God planned to destroy Nineveh and he told Jonah to announce his plans, but implied in it was that it was conditional upon the response of the people to Jonah's message. When they responded with repentance, God changed his mind and chose not to destroy Nineveh.

Radagast said:

I did. The letter "N" and "O" spell out a negative response.

Click to expand...

zelosravioli said:

Well then what would 'you' call knowing something ahead of time before it happens?

Click to expand...

He can't answer that because it would prove our point.

ghtan said:

What do you mean by static foreknowledge? Is it that God will not change his mind about what he has decided? If that is what you mean, then my understanding is that God can choose to keep to what he plans to do or he can choose to change his plans. He is sovereign after all. When God changes his mind, it is usually because the plan was conditional e.g. God planned to destroy Nineveh and he told Jonah to announce his plans, but implied in it was that it was conditional upon the response of the people to Jonah's message. When they responded with repentance, God changed his mind and chose not to destroy Nineveh.

Click to expand...

Static foreknowledge is that which is already settled from the eternal perspective. God will accomplish everything He planned from eternity past and nothing can stay His hand. God cannot and will not change his mind concerning this, it is already settled and Jesus said it was finished. The reason being is because it is what God and God alone will do, He does not rely on man for any of it, thus He will accomplish His whole purpose.

When we see God changing His mind it is only concerning mans actions, just as the potter responds to the movement of the clay, forming and reforming it, so our Father responds like wise to man.

Open theism.
The key problem in this discussion is not actually about is God settled on the future but rather what is Gods intention for the future.

This subject has not actually been investigated much by people, leaving a vacuum which open theists have filled.

Has God intended to create a people of His own from the world, purchased, cleansed and made whole? Is everything bent to optimise the number of people and how they come to realisation of who God is and how they can enter eternity?

Is love the cornerstone of God, is the Fathers and Christs heart?
Does everything reflect the nature of the Lord and for us to find our fulfilment we equally are called to reflect this?

If you listen to Jesus and hear His words and counsel, listen to His constraints on who and what enters eternal life, it is clear, the gate is small and the path narrow and few find it.

My experience to date of these non traditional perspectives is they are ground on exalting sinners and sinful behaviour without judgement, and the pursuit of the believers will over Gods will.

Jesus on the other hand said He obeyed the Father, and found the Fathers love and we likewise would find His love if we obey Him and walk in His ways.

Paul puts it well like this,

Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace.
2 Corinthians 13:11

Gods word stretches us in unusual ways, which is not surprising as He is God and we are mortal sinners, imprinted by the worlds ways and thinking, and need desperately to learn the Lords approach and will, which He promises to give us and lead us if we bow the knee, repent, listen and follow.

What we do not see at first, is the worlds harm in our hearts has made things complicated and painful, conflicted and our hearts stubborn and hard of hearing. It literally gets easier as He heals and resolves issues, building new things in our lives which we never thought possible. There comes a point were we become something we are not aware of, but brings glory to our Lord and Saviour. Amen.

Pneuma3 said:

Static foreknowledge is that which is already settled from the eternal perspective. God will accomplish everything He planned from eternity past and nothing can stay His hand. God cannot and will not change his mind concerning this, it is already settled and Jesus said it was finished. The reason being is because it is what God and God alone will do, He does not rely on man for any of it, thus He will accomplish His whole purpose.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything there that OT does not believe in. Perhaps you can provide a biblical example.

ghtan said:

I don't see anything there that OT does not believe in. Perhaps you can provide a biblical example.

Click to expand...

Open theism does not believe in static foreknowledge, a foreknowledge from eternity past.
A biblical example of what? not sure of what you are asking.