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Yes. It is further evidernce of God's unconditional lover for sinners. Something open theism in essence denies as it clasims God cannot see the future for if He could we would all be robots.Praise God for working mightily in your situation!
Can you explain to me why that has anything to do with the topic?
No, your story does not say anything specifically about God's unconditional love for sinners. There might or might not be conditions in your story--I can't tell from the information you've provided. Where I can find out about God's unconditional love for sinners is in the gospel, where Jesus died for the whole world without asking for anything in return.Yes. It is further evidernce of God's unconditional lover for sinners.
That claim only is a problem for you if you assume your version is true. That's called "begging the question", and it is a logical fallacy. With it, just as I said above, any religious system could be shown to be true. It has no logical (or theological) weight.Something open theism in essence denies as it clasims God cannot see the future for if He could we would all be robots.
I have further evidence from today too.Praise God for working mightily in your situation!
Can you explain to me why that has anything to do with the topic?
Firefighters put out fires too. My daughter is one. From what you are saying, because she puts out fires, it shows that she has love beyond our wildest imagination.I have further evidence from today too.
I woke up about 3:30 this morning coughing with my sinuses completely plugged from forest fire smoke and my throat burning. I put up with it for a while and then decided to ask God to do something about, At first I asked Him to unplug my sinuses and stop my eyes from burning and then asked Him to mske the smoke lift.. I thought about that and decided that was a really selfish prayer as there are a lot of people with breathing problems. So I asked Him to do it for the entire local area. I thought about it more and then decided to ask Him to maske it rain. A slow but steady rain and enough to put down the forest fires around here. After a bit I asked Him to do the same for my brother-in-lae who lives about 40 miles away as he has lung cancer from being vaccinated. Doctors have told him the tops of his lungs look like popcorn so he has a really hard time breathing in dense smoke. He was up for the burying of my mother-in-;aw's ashes on Sabbath and was really struggling to breathe in the heavy smoke on Sabbath.
About a half hour after I prayed I could smell fresh air like you can when it rains. I got up probably a half hour later and started witnessing on line. My wife got up around seven and asked where our dog was, I had let him out and she said it was raining. I wasn't surprised,
This just goes to shoe how much God loves all of us. He did all of this for a lot of His enemies too as there are quite a few non Christians around here too. And putting out the fires was done for the animal life as well as human life. His love for all of us and His willingness to do miracles at the request of sinful humans speaks to a love beyond our wildest imagination.
He tends to go off half-cocked on a regular basis.BTW,. think RD would perma ban me for telling this on the other forum? LOL.
I can't believe you made that comment. Comparing your daughter to God? I realize you love your daughter but that was a ridiculous comment to make. To me it shows no respect for God.Firefighters put out fires too. My daughter is one. From what you are saying, because she puts out fires, it shows that she has love beyond our wildest imagination.
He tends to go off half-cocked on a regular basis.
Which is exactly why I made the comparison--so you would see that your descriptions, while giving glory to God, are ascribing human-like characteristics and calling them godlike and impossible for humans. Certainly there are attributed of God that are impossible for humans to have, but there are some attributes of His that He has endowed us with.I can't believe you made that comment. Comparing your daughter to God? I realize you love your daughter but that was a ridiculous comment to make. To me it shows no respect for God.
Yes, there is some comparison--we are made in His image, after all.BTW, I agree with your comments on Bob Ryan's example of a movie. He too is comparing God to humans and there is just no comparison between the two.
I'd rather not discuss them here.RD and JR are not moderator material let alone admin material, I thought Sherman had too much sense to promote them that high.
Huh? I am giving God human characteristics? Where do you come up with that?Which is exactly why I made the comparison--so you would see that your descriptions, while giving glory to God, are ascribing human-like characteristics and calling them godlike and impossible for humans. Certainly there are attributed of God that are impossible for humans to have, but there are some attributes of His that He has endowed us with.
Yes, there is some comparison--we are made in His image, after all.
I'd rather not discuss them here.
Oh, I just got your refence but it makes no sense to compare human fire fighters to God putting out fires miraculously in response to the prayer of faith.Well, that was cryptic. I still don't understand you.
You were saying that because God put out the fire at your request, His love is way beyond anything we could even imagine. His love may be all that, but I can easily imagine a human putting out a fire at someone's request because my daughter does it all the time. What you're doing is called hyperbole. It's fine to do it, but it isn't a valid way to come to conclusions about God.Oh I just got your refence but it makes no sense to compare human fire fighters to God putting out fires miraculously in response to the prayer of faith.
So, to you God answering a prayer to first, lift the smoke which happened with no breeze, and then put out the fire causing all the smoke is no big deal. I's not hyperbole. It's fact.You were saying that because God put out the fire at your request, His love is way beyond anything we could even imagine. His love may be all that, but I can easily imagine a human putting out a fire at someone's request because my daughter does it all the time. What you're doing is called hyperbole. It's fine to do it, but it isn't a valid way to come to conclusions about God.
And what's so miraculous about putting out a fire with water?
I thank God for the rain and the breezes, and I pray for them to start and stop, as I think we need. But it's not a miraculous event for rain to start or stop. Even if it is, it doesn't prove that God knew from before the foundation of the earth that He would be answering your particular prayer at that particular time. If so, then it seems like He got caught in His own movie, as described by @BobRyan, just waiting around until it's His turn to do a miracle.So, to you God answering a prayer to first, lift the smoke which happened with no breeze, and then put out the fire causing all the smoke is no big deal. I's not hyperbole. It's fact.
I'm pretty disappointed in you that you see a miracle as hyperbole.
I have always had the option to refuse His help and at times in my life I have for extended periods. It didn't stop Him from helping me even during those extended periods periods when I lived in self destruct mode. Even during those times He worked miracles in my life. My guardian angel spoke to me to attempt to stop me from doing something in which I was injured badly enough the injury still affects me to this day. My angel has spoken to me twice attempting to help me. Neither of those times was I actively following God.I thank God for the rain and the breezes, and I pray for them to start and stop, as I think we need. But it's not a miraculous event for rain to start or stop. Even if it is, it doesn't prove that God knew from before the foundation of the earth that He would be answering your particular prayer at that particular time. If so, then it seems like He got caught in His own movie, as described by @BobRyan, just waiting around until it's His turn to do a miracle.
That's all great and wonderful--His love is beyond compare.I have always had the option to refuse His help and at times in my life I have for extended periods. It didn't stop Him from helping me even during those extended periods periods when I lived in self destruct mode. Even during those times He worked miracles in my life. My guardian angel spoke to me to attempt to stop me from doing something in which I was injured badly enough the injury still affects me to this day. My angel has spoken to me twice attempting to help me. Neither of those times was I actively following God.
For some reason God has put on a full court press to bring me to Him all my life. Don't ask me why as I can't see anything in me worth all the effort He has put forth. He's literally saved my life multiple times that I know of. But the greatest of them all is that someone as stubborn as I am has changed from a rebel against Him into a servant of His.
It certainly does to me. Have you experienced that kind of relationship with God? If not, how can you say it wouldn't have the same effect on you?That's all great and wonderful--His love is beyond compare.
But it says nothing about either issue--whether we have free will or whether God knows everything we will do from the foundation of the world.
God interacts in time -- He did not send Elijah food before Elijah was born. He sent it on time.If God answered Hezekiah's prayer before he was born, Then God gave Hezekiah incorrect information in the first prophecy--that he was going to die of the desease...and He knew it was incorrect. (C and A)
If God answered his prayer after he prayed it, then the future is not settled, and God can't have known He would extend Hezekiah's life from the foundation of the world. (O)
Then what you've done is confirm that God is playing a part in a movie script, and He can't deviate from it. That's your model, and it makes God subject to something akin to the Fates of Greek mythology--a determining power greater than Himself.God interacts in time -- He did not send Elijah food before Elijah was born. He sent it on time.
Jesus was crucified in real time, in real history 2000 years ago. But God knew of it from all eternity - every detail of it.
So your "answered prayer" model is incorrect. It technically only gets to when the event happens in real life. The thread is about "when does God know something". Those are two different things and you are conflating them as if they are one thing.
If God can declare the end from the beginning he knows the end from the beginning. It's that simple.You even disagree with the part where I agreed with you? That doesnt help your argument much.
Can you show me the scripture that says God "sees the end from the beginning"? The one you quoted doesn't say that, but says He declared the end from the beginning, telling us He is accomplishing His counsel/pleasure.
Which means, "I'll stick with my own interpretation of scripture, even if you show me it's wrong." I thought you would do better than that, Gary.
But we don't have to imagine when God tells us something about Himself.
Why would speaking creation into existence mean He does or doesn't know the end from the beginning, much less, every minute detail in between?
There are many things about God I can't explain, But when God speaks about Himself, then I can explain, based on what He says. Is that the part you disagreed with in my last post?
No, not if there are other ways to understand it. Your version is one possibility, but another is that God declares what He's going to bring to pass. In other words, "God knows because He will do it," rather than "God knows because He sees everything in a crystal ball."If God can declare the end from the beginning he knows the end from the beginning. It's that simple.
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