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[OPEN] The Validity of the Bible

SoulFly51

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I'm posting this thread with an [OPEN] tag on it so that those not apart of the RM fellowship can discuss here without breaking any rules.

I'd like to hear why you guys think we should believe what the Bible says, or why we shouldn't.

Some have said that only the words of Jesus should be taken seriously, while others should be ignored.

Here is part of a discussion I hard with InDeo in another thread that caused me to post this thread (his original posts were deleted because he's not apart of the RM):

Wow ...

Paul isolated himself? Paul is the main person God used to introduce the gentile world (you and I) to the gospel, and he didn't do that by isolating himself.

Paul wasn't in touch with the Spirit? Paul's work resulted millions and millions of people coming into a relationship with Christ!

3 questions for you:

1) Why do you say these things about Paul?

2) What is your view of the Bible?

3) Are you a truth seeker?

EDIT: Ok, so the post I was responding to by InDeoHonorium was deleted. I'd still like to hear his response either here on in PM as to why Paul's writings shouldn't be viewed as from God or as Scripture.

Just to clarify what Paul is talking about when he says "yoked together," he is not saying "don't talk to sinners" or "don't befriend a lost person." He is saying "be wise in who you choose to be best buddies with," and I believe the context of the phrase "yoked together" from 2 Corinthians is certainly applicable to a romantic relationship.

Consider who Jesus was best buddies with. Sure, he was a friend to sinners, but he was best friends with repentant sinners (Peter, James, and John) - not idolaters!

I hope that my failing to clarify that in my original post isn't what caused you to say what you said.
 

AJB4

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I think that all that's written in the Bible is inspired by God. God had a hand in writing everything. I'm sure a lot of the stuff said would not be exactly how God would've put it, but he would've guided the prophets and other writers to write it so us mere mortals could understand.
 
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Morghaine

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I believe the Bible was authored by God, through man. As 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
 
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AGirlSaved

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Yep, completely agree with you all.

Paul's teachings are quite essential for the church. His spirit-led teachings are what aided in establishing the church & keeping it pure, and has guidelines for becoming ways for Christians to live, love, & conduct themselves.

All of the word was inspired by God, not just the 'red letters.' But Christ is the heart of it all! <3
 
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InDeoHonorium2

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I'm posting this thread with an [OPEN] tag on it so that those not apart of the RM fellowship can discuss here without breaking any rules.

I'd like to hear why you guys think we should believe what the Bible says, or why we shouldn't.

Some have said that only the words of Jesus should be taken seriously, while others should be ignored.

Here is part of a discussion I hard with InDeo in another thread that caused me to post this thread (his original posts were deleted because he's not apart of the RM):
Originally Posted by WesWoodell
Wow ...

Paul isolated himself? Paul is the main person God used to introduce the gentile world (you and I) to the gospel, and he didn't do that by isolating himself.

Paul wasn't in touch with the Spirit? Paul's work resulted millions and millions of people coming into a relationship with Christ!

3 questions for you:

1) Why do you say these things about Paul?

2) What is your view of the Bible?

3) Are you a truth seeker?



__________



I will say and do things that do nto go hand in hand with everything in the Bible. If you pay close attention and listen to what I say and do, you will understand WHY You may be forced to think, you may be forced to take a different view on things, but you will not be forced to change what you believe or do. I am not trying to detroy your faith, scare you or anything like that; IF you are truly strong in your faith, then you will not fear others who haev a different view.

I am intolerant of only intolerance. OK maybe a few other things, but that includes behaviors that were very influential in driving me out of the RM to begin with.

I am not into Labels either, so I would not call myself by any label other than perhaps independant......

I also do not, as a general rule, go around quoting Bible verses. ou will soon see why, but partly because my experience has been that anyone can take anything out of context and quote it; and many can quote verses and many times I have found that these are the same sad individuals who cannot live by what they quote.
Quoting verses does not indicate and understanding of them. And it does not mean that someone then lives by them.

In response to your questions number one why do I say these thins about Paul.
First, I never ever cared for many things he wrote. Don't come back with "What about Corinthians 13?" I noticed long ago, that there seemed to be a certain instability in his writings. I also noticed that on many occasions, he seemed to havea boistrous, conceited attitude, as someone who thought he no doubt knew everything and had some right to force his views on others. Kind of like people in church who I found most repulsive.
I checked out this book by Frederick Buechner called PECULIAR TREASURES
The author gives some great insights into Paul's mental illness. Yes, PAUL was Mentally Ill. In the context that many people view him, in the influence that he had on Christians even today, that may not have neccesarily been a bad thing. But he was Mentally Ill. Remember that.

THAT WILL LEAD INTO THE NEXT QUESTION
MY VIES OF THE BIBLE. I have been laughed at, been threatened, deleted and lost a few fair weather friends over this, but I will tell you what I know. My experience my research and my seeking in life has shown me that the bible is just a book. It was written by men, assembled by men, it is NOT The complete and final word of God, because there can be no such thing.
Man cannot truly understand the vastness of God; we as men can try to limit and humanize God and try to contain him in a book about others experiences with God but we cannot truly fathom something.
During Paul's time, there was no Bible. There were a lot of illiterate people, especially slaves and lower class people who greatly desired the Message Jesus taught. There were ancient Jewish scriptures, but there was no Bible. There were many gospels floating around where someone had taken and written the latest version of the oral tradiotion, but the major way of communicating was through the oral tradition. For this reason, there are so many differences in the four gospels.
In addition, consider the lives of first century people. Superstition, myth and fear were the rule. Much of the world came under the influence of the Roman empire. While there were many great things about this, there were many less than desirable as well. While Roman citizenry enjoyed relative greater safety and educational opportunities that others did not, one must remember that many aspects of Roman life, such as slavery would not be acceptable in our society today.
Eventually, we know that the Emperor constantine (The Holy Roman Emperor) decided and comminsioned a meeting of a council of church leaders to gather up and authenticate which of the hundreds of versions of gospels, epistles and letters which were floating around in Roman society . Keep in mind that Roam's liked consistency, and the Roman literacy rate was much greater than that of Jewish slaves...While Jews and slaves would have to be satisfied with the oral tradition, since most could not read, the ROmans, on the other hand, wanted something that they could ALL read. OR at least their emporer did. But, here is another probelm. The Emporer was more interested in serving himslef, not Christ. The religion of Christianity was appealing to him, but look closely at the repression and violence in his life after his "conversion" and determine for yourself if he was or was not a truly good example of Christianity.

So at the Council, it was voted which manuscripts presented were authentic and which were not. those which were were bound into the Bible. The idea was to present a document for early Chirstians to use as a reference. The idea was NOT to present this document as the complete and final word of God, as such would undermine the authoruty of the church and the emperor.
The Bible was only presented as a sealed book of saying"These are authentic documents of the gospel and epistles; we believe these to be the accurate writings based on the stories told"

Of course, one must wonder how much of the emperoros ego was invested in this too. And how much of an agenda he must have had as well. How much of this book, the BIble, which again was only meant to be an authentication of manuscripts, and not the complete and finaal word of God, was designed with the underlying idea that the emperor could use it to make himself look better to the eyes of the citizenry and the world?

One might argue then that the Bible is true because it has existed all these years. Well, don't kid yourself. Widespread acceptance does not indicate absolute truth.
Remmebr for all those years how primitive people accepted astrology and magic as the truth? That lasted for thousands of years, and if you go back in time and ask anyone around, they would tell you that yes, testars control the destiny of man and the earth is the center of the universe. IT was science, not religion, that eventually gave us the understanding we have today that the erath is not the center of the universe and that the motion of the stars does not govern our lives. Yet even in Biblical times, astrology was still accepted as fact. So am I to now accept a document about their perception of God as fact, knowing the superstitious and primitive nature of these people ?

Eventually the Roam nempire fell. Through the barbaric dark ages, mauch of the European power rested in the hands of the church. And the repressive barbaric nature of "Superstition" ruled supreme in America. This was while advances in Medicine and science were being made in the Arab World by Non Christians and cultural advances in art and science in aSia where Christianity was not known due to the isolationism of those Japan and China.

Yet the Christians, holding a Bible as scripture, remained in the dark ages, repressive, violent, supertitious......

Through Violence they conquered many lands. Settlers to America carrying Bibles and seeking religious freedom conquered primitive tribes of people. Was this a victory of Christianity over Earth religions? no it was a victory of fireams and germ warfare over spears and arrows. It was not a symbol of Christianity as a right religion, it was a symbol of Christianity by Might! like the Spanish inquistiion.

Along the way, this book, the Bible, written only as an authentication of various writings by various auithors, was carried and accepted as fact by later people. Again widespread acceptance does not equal fact ! There is nothing I see that indicates the Bible as anything more than a reference. I do not see where it is authored by God, and in many cases it is not inspired by God.

But it was as I have shown authored by a questionable council.......

And Paul, while he is reveared by some and reviled by others, was mentally ill. So take with a grain of salt anything he says.

I would look closely a Jesus as an enlightened teacher and see the inner truth in his parables and teachings, but understand the translation of the book you are reading was from manuscripts taken long after he died and was based on writings from an oral tradion well after the fact. Accurate or not, the teachings of Jesus are an enlightened gem to be learned from.



SO to your third question. Am I a seeker ? I am not sure what that label means, but I will try to answer the best that I can. I do seek God daily. I have learned where God is and where God is not... God is NOT at work exclusively in the Bible. yes God was at work in the Gospels, but I do not see any proof that God was at work in Paul all of the time. and I do not see any proof for the Bible as fact or word of God. Inspiration yes, but fact no. And inspuiration exists just as much in many other books too.....so is the Bible, just another book? I won't risk death threats by saying yes, but I will say that I tell everyone DO NOT place your ENTIRE faith in what a Book says...seek first the kingdom of heaven which is within you......
God is not at work at 12th Street church of Christ, (name changed) or across town at third avenue United Methodist either for that fact....
God does not exist within a building and he is not Owned by a certain group of believers. God is universal, and beyond the undersatnding of many people......

I can list many many inspired books, but why bother? they inspired ME and they worked for me, but since my experiences and enlightnements are different from yours, as my life is different from yours, as my past is different from yours, what God reveals to me will not be the same as what is revealed to you. That is because God works through each of us in ways that we cannot understand. Ofh we try, and we make futile attempts thrrough religion to understand (or appease?) God, we try to humanize god as a superhuman with a n ego that needs to be worshipped , perhaps, or as a just and angry diety, or as a loving savior, or as a little less evil than the devil, but the fact is, these are the creations of men. Religion, all religions, all churches, all movements etc are all the creation of man. As such they will have flaws. So will the textbooks they write. We can fool ourselves into thinking that we have some great truth and enlightenment as a result, but if we focus on religion instead of God, we have nothing. Which i why the label "spiritual" and not the label "religious" applies to me . But I am not into labels.....

I hope this shed some insight into where I am coming from. I will copy this so that I can repost it again whould we continue this conversation.

I am not here to pass judgement on you either, I am interested in why you belive what you believe and I am not threatened that your beliefs are different than mine.
THANKS WES for your time and I will continue this talk as long as you want.....
 
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ParsonJefferson

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Clearly the Bible is the inspired Word/Revelation of God.

But I think we need to recognize that it is written in many different "genres". For instance, we must read poetry (such as Psalms) with a different "lens" than that with which we read narratives, or the Gospels.

Context is very important.
 
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InDeoHonorium2

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Coming from a Mystical or rather, if you prefer the Label LOL , metaphysical background, Jesus was the greatest enlightened thinker ever. Bhudda was enlightened after years of work; Jesus, was BORN enlightened.....
There is a story from Anne Rice It was said that Memnoch, the Devil, told God that He could not fully understand the human experience, though he had the vast knowledge of the creator . So, to experience humanity, God came down as Jesus, to assume a human experience......
Interesting parable

Especially when we recite the mantra "God from God Light from Light True God From True God begotten not made"

Jesus, you see, is not a symbol of religion. Jesus IS The symbol of spiritual oneness with God

I doubt many have the depth to expolore that, but I would suggest they try
 
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Freedom&Light

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Hi everyone!

This is just a FYI Mod Hat. The [OPEN] tags are not really to allow for debate in the congregational forums- they allow for fellowship and discussion with non-Christians and non-Nicene Creed Christians.

This thread will remain open, though, unless it turns into a debate. In which case, it would probably to good to move it to an area that allows for more debate.

Please feel free to PM me with any questions. :D
 
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Wes and Paul and everyone
Greetings
I know life is busy for everyone at this time of the holidays and I can attest that it is around my house
I do not want to come across harshly towards either of you (or other members posting) in this forum

And I do not want to debate here either

I posted this thread over at the non denominational forum You will find a number of people from liberal to conservative who will jump in. I have made it clear that I am not out to change anyone's beliefs.

Here is an idea, I want to hear what you think of this possibility.
Paul's Writings, it has been suggested, were not all written by paul of Tarsis........
That would explain for example, how the 13th chapter of Corinthian's talking about love could seem so opposite of the verse Wes posted last week about Paul encouraging people to cut off it would seem to non believers.....
Maybe the same person did not write both letters.....or maybe some sort of psychogenic acitivity was at work, giving this person a seeming "split persionality"
For me, it makes me doubt the vailidity of anything with that name on it.......
It could be that the letter to the Roamsn for exapmple was not written by the same person who wrote the letter to the Corinthins but the same NAME was on both of them.
It is possible. after all, we know that there were multiple authors of the Gospel of john, and we know that the Gospel of John appears more "contrived" than the other three.......
And like I said, these manuscripts were authenticated by men, so there is ample room for human error......

Just a thought.

NOW it is your turn. Let me hear from you PLEASE
 
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Because it has been revealed to me, by the Spirit, by my experiences in life, by what I can concieve with my mind to be true. Jesus was , for all intents and purposes, "God from God Light from Light True God from True God begotten not made"
 
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AGirlSaved

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I'm going to assume most of what you know about Jesus you've heard from others (and by others I'm including the biblical writers).

You say that your knowledge of Christ was "revealed to you by the Spirit."

Why do you say that?
You must have the Spirit to understand.

In other words, have submitted your life to Jesus Christ, by confessing to him that you are a sinner and that you need Him to guide your life, then submitting to him. The Spirit then dwells in you.

You will never understand otherwise.
 
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JDIBe

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You must have the Spirit to understand.

In other words, have submitted your life to Jesus Christ, by confessing to him that you are a sinner and that you need Him to guide your life, then submitting to him. The Spirit then dwells in you.

You will never understand otherwise.


True, the Holy Spirit does help in our understanding, but there must be some understanding before that point, too. Otherwise, how would you know how or why you should become a Christian in the first place?

You end up in the classic "Chicken or the Egg" arguement.....
 
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faure

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I look at it this way; would God allow his Word to be twisted or mis-represented? You either believe all of the Bible or none of it. To do otherwise would be to set yourself up above God, deeming some of His word as true as some as false based on your opinion. Can you tell God that you reject some His Word because you don't agree with it?

16Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action). 2 Timothy 3

ALL of the Bible, every single word, when truly studied and understood, stands up to ANY criticism. I'm open-minded to read any criticism and try to understand it simply because I know, by faith, that the Word of God will stand up to it.

Be carefull about rejecting parts of Bible, or the passage in Matthew 13 might well apply to you (spoken by Jesus himself, if that makes any difference to you):

13This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand.

14In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive.
15For this nation's heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them.(A) 16But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear.

Peace out.
 
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forgotten33

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I believe in the bible because Jesus word is trustworthy and true. He has never lied to me or misled me, everytime that I get off the right path he brings me back. This is why I listen too the bible and Jesus. I trust him more than anyone on these fourms. 300,000 people?
 
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SilverWings

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While I have time, I would like to ask you a quick question. I will respond to other parts of your post later.

Why do you believe what you believe about Jesus?
The Bible is the inspired word of God. Do you have any idea what that means? The significance of this? This means the Bible is the very breath of God, who is invisible to His enemies, and real to those who love Him.

How does God announce His reality to those who love Him? Through His Spirit.

It is by the Spirit that the things of the Spirit are reckoned, no? Without the Spirit, it is impossible to recognise God. Without the Spirit God remains a mystery that cannot be unlocked, no matter the will in man; no matter how much he may try to wrestle with God or try to "work Him out."

The things of God are spirit-breathed. And it is by the Spirit alone that they are heard. We believe, we who are believers, because the Spirit within us recognises Himself resounding in the scriptures. That is why we also are equipped to reject what is false. As John said: "The one in you is greater than the one in the world," on the topic of false-teachers and teach-ings.
 
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